Apron placement as intimidation?

[Joshua Rogan]

Thanks Jerry. Any idea what the 'white wrapper' referred to actually was? I'd always imagined it was a form of scarf, possibly one (or both) of the white handkerchieves listed in her clothing. But when I googled it, a wrapper seems to have been a sort of dressing gown....

Edit: Ah, I see you have done the same!

[jerryd]

Thanks Jerry. Any idea what the 'white wrapper' referred to actually was? I'd always imagined it was a form of scarf, possibly one (or both) of the white handkerchieves listed in her clothing. But when I googled it, a wrapper seems to have been a sort of dressing gown....

Hi Joshua,

See my EDIT in my last post. That means he had to loosen some things around her neck (such as an apron string) before he saw the dress which corresponds to the dress being under the apron as I thought.

Thinking back, though, there wasn't a white day dress in the inventory as I remember, so maybe that wasn't the wrapper Hutt referred to. So, what was the wrapper?

[Wickerman]

Hi Joshua,

See my EDIT in my last post. That means he had to loosen some things around her neck (such as an apron string) before he saw the dress which corresponds to the dress being under the apron as I thought.

Thinking back, though, there wasn't a white day dress in the inventory as I remember, so maybe that wasn't the wrapper Hutt referred to. So, what was the wrapper?

Many living history programs, which focus on domestic life in the second half of the 19th Century are faced with the dilemma of women who want to, or are supposed to be in 19th Century costume, but who are not willing or able to wear the elaborate underpinnings that go with fashionable ladies' attire, such as corsets, petticoats, bustles and the like.

Many more who are willing to give it a try lack the sewing skills required to produce one of these rather complex dresses.

There is a solution: it is called the "wrapper".

The 19th Century wrapper is a house dress. It was worn to do the hard work that was so much a part of the life of 19th Century women. Floors need to be scrubbed, cows milked, laundry washed, children chased, meals prepared etc. etc., and none of this is really possible for a woman all trussed up in a corset and bustle.

Working class women on the farm or in the tenement would frequently only have a wrapper, and not even possess a fashionable dress. Middle class women, who would wear fashionable finery to go out visiting, would wear a wrapper to do the housework. While most middle class families had maids of all work to help out, the lady of the house also did a lot of drudge work, and she did it in a wrapper.

The wrapper, interestingly enough, got more fashionable as the century progressed, so that by the 1890s, ladies were entertaining other ladies in "Tea Wrappers".

http://walternelson.com/historia/2006/05/in_praise_of_the_wrapper.html

[Joshua Rogan]

The white wrapper doesn't really sound like an apron bib to me, I wonder if Hutt was referring to her chemise (which is listed as an item of her clothing)? He would surely only have seen this after loosening her dress at the neck, as it would be worn next to the skin.

Other than the Telegraph account, I can only find two other reports that mention her being searched, and neither mention a wrapper, or anything else around her neck except the red hankie.

Daily News 12th Oct
By the Jury - We do not examine the pockets of drunken persons, but we unfastened the dress at the neck, and I then noticed a red silk handkerchief.

Times 12th Oct
By a juryman. - Prisoners were not searched who were brought into the station drunk. Handkerchiefs or anything with which they could injure themselves would be taken from them.

[jerryd]

The white wrapper doesn't really sound like an apron bib to me

Hey Joshua,

I wasn't thinking it was the bib, but a day dress, which I was faulty in thinking. Hutt does mention loosening "things" (plural) around her neck. Dr. Brown also mentioned strings being still attached round the neck. That is what leads me to believe she wore a bib apron that night.

It really doesn't matter in the scheme of things whether it was a bib apron or not. Was just trying to get to the bottom of it, if possible.

[Trevor Marriott]

From your response Trevor, and Simon's lack of the same, we can take it that the actual 'times' previously asserted are in actual fact, not known.

I wasn't looking for opinion, everybody has one of those.

Its not opinion, the stripping of the body on its arrival at the mortuary is well documented as I who was present and we know what time the body arrived at the mortuary.

As to Dr Philips not arriving the mortuary with the GS piece before 5.20am that is documented in a newspaper report which I cant lay my hands on at his time. In any event the two pieces were matched after the body was stripped so it could not have still been attached as is suggested and not before.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Wickerman]

The inventory was made as soon as the body arrived at the mortuary.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

In a previous debate with you concerning your claim that someone entered the mortuary and removed her organs, a press account was posted which told that two constables had been posted on duty outside the mortuary over night after Eddowes had been brought there.
The doctors did not follow the body to the mortuary.

This indicates that the body was not stripped, nor the inventory of clothing taken, until the two doctors arrived at the mortuary later on Sunday.
The autopsy commenced at 2:30 pm, which will have been preceded by the stripping of the body and consequently, the taking of the inventory.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

I was actually more interested in Collard's use of the phrase " . . . the apron which deceased was apparently wearing . . ." [my emphasis].

Regards,

Simon

[jerryd]

Hi All,

I was actually more interested in Collard's use of the phrase " . . . the apron which deceased was apparently wearing . . ." [my emphasis].

Regards,

Simon

Simon,

I don't think it all pieced together in Collards mind until the pieces were matched up at the mortuary. All the first responders saw when Kate was found was a strange piece of cloth attached to the neck that was cut through.

[Trevor Marriott]

In a previous debate with you concerning your claim that someone entered the mortuary and removed her organs, a press account was posted which told that two constables had been posted on duty outside the mortuary over night after Eddowes had been brought there.
The doctors did not follow the body to the mortuary.

This indicates that the body was not stripped, nor the inventory of clothing taken, until the two doctors arrived at the mortuary later on Sunday.
The autopsy commenced at 2:30 pm, which will have been preceded by the stripping of the body and consequently, the taking of the inventory.

You clearly dont read the full inquest testimony do you? or if you do, you dont understand it. The body was stripped as soon as it arrived at the mortuary and the lists prepared.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Joshua Rogan]

This indicates that the body was not stripped, nor the inventory of clothing taken, until the two doctors arrived at the mortuary later on Sunday.

I'm not sure that's true Jon....Halse is reported as being there when the body was stripped, before hearing that the Goulston St piece had been found;

Times
He came through Goulston-street about 20 minutes past 2, at the spot where the apron was found, and he then went back to Mitre-square and accompanied Inspector Collard to the mortuary. He there saw the deceased undressed, noticing that a portion of the apron she wore was missing. He accompanied Major Smith back to Mitre-square, where they heard that a piece of apron had been found in Goulston-street

Morning Advertiser
I came through Goulston street, where the apron was found, about 20 minutes past two. I then went to the mortuary, saw the deceased stripped, and noticed that a portion of the apron was missing. I accompanied Major Smith back to Mitre square, and heard that a portion of the apron had been found

Daily News
I came through Goulston street about twenty minutes past two, where the apron was found, and then went back to Mitre square. I saw the deceased stripped, and noticed that a portion of the apron was missing. I accompanied Major Smith back to the station, when we heard that a piece of apron had been found in Goulston street.

[Wickerman]

Good enough Joshua, thanks. Sorry Trevor.

[Wickerman]

In a previous debate with you concerning your claim that someone entered the mortuary and removed her organs, a press account was posted which told that two constables had been posted on duty outside the mortuary over night after Eddowes had been brought there....

This was the pic. posted by Cris.



Though the thread discussion primarily concerned the body of Chapman, not Eddowes - mea culpa.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=8223&page=26&highlight=mortuary

[Pierre]

The apron was a layer above her dress and cut through due to the other portion being taken by the killer.

Outside = above ?

[Pierre]

Hi All,

I was actually more interested in Collard's use of the phrase " . . . the apron which deceased was apparently wearing . . ." [my emphasis].

Regards,

Simon

So she appeared to wear it. Did she not wear it?

Was it "outside the dress" of the victim and she was not wearing it?

Then how did it get there?