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  • #46
    Originally posted by jerryd View Post
    Shoreditch Station for these two murders was closer or even Bishopsgate [Liverpool Street Station].
    Jerry,

    Why would it have been necessary for the killer to disappear from Whitechapel directly after the murders?

    Are there any hypotheses about that?

    Regards, Pierre

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by jerryd View Post
      They were also murdered near police "fixed points", which narrows down the police aspect you elude to even closer to each murder site than the police stations.
      I have no knowledge at all about those "fixed points".

      Could you perhaps enlighten me a bit more as to what the addresses were for those, or perhaps you could recommend a source?

      Regards, Pierre

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Pierre View Post
        Jerry,

        Why would it have been necessary for the killer to disappear from Whitechapel directly after the murders?

        Are there any hypotheses about that?

        Regards, Pierre
        My guess is the killer lived outside of Whitechapel as being the reason.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Pierre View Post
          I have no knowledge at all about those "fixed points".

          Could you perhaps enlighten me a bit more as to what the addresses were for those, or perhaps you could recommend a source?

          Regards, Pierre
          Hopefully Bridewell won't mind me posting an old post of his. His source is Dicken's Dictionary of London 1888. He only posted the fixed points in Whitechapel. I did notice, though, "A" division had a fixed point at the Bridge Street Rail Station which is exactly where the underground tunnel I've mentioned before led to the Whitehall worksite.

          "The under-mentioned places are appointed as fixed points where a police constable is to be permanently stationed from 9pm to 1am. In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance.

          H or Whitechapel Division

          Ben Jonson-rd and White Horse-st, Stepney, junction of
          Brick-la and Bethnal-green-rd, junction of
          Christian-st and Commercial-rd, end of
          Church-st, Wapping
          Columbia-rd, Bethnal Gn, corner of Hassard-st
          Commercial-rd-east, corner of Bromehead-st
          Commercial-st, Spitalfields, corner of Thrawl-st
          Flower and Dean-st and Brick-la, Spitalfields, end of
          George-yd, Hight-st, Whitechapel, end of
          G.E. Ry., High-st, Shoreditch, front of
          Great Garden-st and Whitechapel-rd, opposite end of
          Hanbury-st, cor of Deal-st, Mile End New Town
          Hare-alley, High-st, Shoreditch, end of
          Hermitage-br, Wapping
          Leman-st, Commercial-st and Hight-st, Whitechapel, junc of
          New Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
          Old Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
          Ship-alley & St George's-st-east, south end of
          Shoreditch Church
          Spencer-st and Watney-st, St. Georges East, corner of
          Spitalfields Church
          Stepney ry-stn, Commercial-rd-ea
          Upper East Smithfield, principal entrance London Docks
          Warner-pl and Hackney-rd, cor of
          Wells-st, Whitechapel, opposite Sailors' Home,
          Whitechapel Church
          White Horse-la and Mile End-rd, junction of

          *A constable is stationed at each of these points from 3pm to 7am."
          Last edited by jerryd; 07-22-2016, 12:34 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by jerryd View Post
            Hopefully Bridewell won't mind me posting an old post of his. His source is Dicken's Dictionary of London 1888. He only posted the fixed points in Whitechapel. I did notice, though, "A" division had a fixed point at the Bridge Street Rail Station which is exactly where the underground tunnel I've mentioned before led to the Whitehall worksite.

            "The under-mentioned places are appointed as fixed points where a police constable is to be permanently stationed from 9pm to 1am. In the event of any person springing a rattle, or persistently ringing a bell in the street or in an area, the police will at once proceed to the spot and render assistance.

            H or Whitechapel Division

            Ben Jonson-rd and White Horse-st, Stepney, junction of
            Brick-la and Bethnal-green-rd, junction of
            Christian-st and Commercial-rd, end of
            Church-st, Wapping
            Columbia-rd, Bethnal Gn, corner of Hassard-st
            Commercial-rd-east, corner of Bromehead-st
            Commercial-st, Spitalfields, corner of Thrawl-st
            Flower and Dean-st and Brick-la, Spitalfields, end of
            George-yd, Hight-st, Whitechapel, end of
            G.E. Ry., High-st, Shoreditch, front of
            Great Garden-st and Whitechapel-rd, opposite end of
            Hanbury-st, cor of Deal-st, Mile End New Town
            Hare-alley, High-st, Shoreditch, end of
            Hermitage-br, Wapping
            Leman-st, Commercial-st and Hight-st, Whitechapel, junc of
            New Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
            Old Gravel-la-br, London Docks *
            Ship-alley & St George's-st-east, south end of
            Shoreditch Church
            Spencer-st and Watney-st, St. Georges East, corner of
            Spitalfields Church
            Stepney ry-stn, Commercial-rd-ea
            Upper East Smithfield, principal entrance London Docks
            Warner-pl and Hackney-rd, cor of
            Wells-st, Whitechapel, opposite Sailors' Home,
            Whitechapel Church
            White Horse-la and Mile End-rd, junction of

            *A constable is stationed at each of these points from 3pm to 7am."
            Thanks a lot, Jerry!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Pierre View Post
              I have no knowledge at all about those "fixed points".
              Funny that because on 1 January of this year, in 'The Profession of Jack the Ripper' thread, #282, you reproduced an article originally posted by Craig which you said you found 'interesting' because it 'introduced a number of new ideas for me'. That article contained quite a few mentions of fixed points, including this passage:

              "Charles Dickens's Encyclopędia of London for 1888/1889 lists all the fixed points in the East End. Martha TABRAM had been found only yards away from a fixed point at Commercial Street at the junction with Thrawl Street, while a fixed point existed outside Whitechapel Station just the other side of the railway line where Polly NICHOLLS was found. Annie CHAPMAN was found a few yards away from another fixed point in Hanbury Street, at the junction with Deal Street, Mile End New Town.

              The "double event" took place early on 30th September. At 1 a.m. Elizabeth STRIDE's body was found in Dutfield's Yard, Berner Street (now Henriques Street), once again just minutes away from a fixed point in Commercial Road, at the junction with Christian Street. Looking at the present day map, it would appear that the murder scene is some distance from the nearest underground station. However, there was at that time a Metropolitan District Railway Station situated on the south side of Whitechapel Road known as St. Mary's. It wasn't closed until 1938. By travelling north along the courts and alleys the Ripper could easily have made good his escape below ground. Less than one hour later Catherine EDDOWES body was found in Mitre Square. This was a change of pattern, as it lay within the City Police area. Just a few minutes away was Aldgate Station, which explains how Jack arrived undetected underground at Mitre Square from St. Mary's Station."


              Is it that you have a very bad memory do you think or do you just not read things properly?

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                My guess is the killer lived outside of Whitechapel as being the reason.
                Jerry

                from what Pierre has told us before he believes, or at least did, that the killer had accommodation near Charing Cross station and at an undisclosed address in Whitechapel during the killings.

                In addition, his person was not a member of the London police forces in 1888 if I understand him correctly.

                Steve

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by David Orsam View Post
                  Funny that because on 1 January of this year, in 'The Profession of Jack the Ripper' thread, #282, you reproduced an article originally posted by Craig which you said you found 'interesting' because it 'introduced a number of new ideas for me'. That article contained quite a few mentions of fixed points, including this passage:

                  "Charles Dickens's Encyclopędia of London for 1888/1889 lists all the fixed points in the East End. Martha TABRAM had been found only yards away from a fixed point at Commercial Street at the junction with Thrawl Street, while a fixed point existed outside Whitechapel Station just the other side of the railway line where Polly NICHOLLS was found. Annie CHAPMAN was found a few yards away from another fixed point in Hanbury Street, at the junction with Deal Street, Mile End New Town.

                  The "double event" took place early on 30th September. At 1 a.m. Elizabeth STRIDE's body was found in Dutfield's Yard, Berner Street (now Henriques Street), once again just minutes away from a fixed point in Commercial Road, at the junction with Christian Street. Looking at the present day map, it would appear that the murder scene is some distance from the nearest underground station. However, there was at that time a Metropolitan District Railway Station situated on the south side of Whitechapel Road known as St. Mary's. It wasn't closed until 1938. By travelling north along the courts and alleys the Ripper could easily have made good his escape below ground. Less than one hour later Catherine EDDOWES body was found in Mitre Square. This was a change of pattern, as it lay within the City Police area. Just a few minutes away was Aldgate Station, which explains how Jack arrived undetected underground at Mitre Square from St. Mary's Station."


                  Is it that you have a very bad memory do you think or do you just not read things properly?
                  No, David, it is not one of those. It is you that do not understand.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                    Jerry

                    from what Pierre has told us before he believes, or at least did, that the killer had accommodation near Charing Cross station and at an undisclosed address in Whitechapel during the killings.

                    In addition, his person was not a member of the London police forces in 1888 if I understand him correctly.

                    Steve
                    Hi Steve,

                    I do remember that. I was giving Pierre my personal opinion because he asked what hypotheses would there be for the killer to leave immediately after a murder. We were discussing railway stations at the time. I said because I believe he lived outside of Whitechapel.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                      Hi Steve,

                      I do remember that. I was giving Pierre my personal opinion because he asked what hypotheses would there be for the killer to leave immediately after a murder. We were discussing railway stations at the time. I said because I believe he lived outside of Whitechapel.

                      Hi Jerry

                      No problem, just passing on info, which can easily be forgotten.

                      Personally I do not see the use of the tunnels on foot as viable means of escape.

                      Firstly if the ventilation shafts were used, a as a means of entry to the track, which has been discussed in the past, there is the problem of the drop to the tracks for escape.
                      A secondary point would be that they would be, if not covered with soot, at least heavily soiled with it when they reached their point of exit.

                      In addition I wonder if maintenance of the early underground was carried out in 1888 at night as it is now. Daytime maintenance on those line not being practical.

                      Of course if maintenance was carried on after the closure of the line it could make escape more difficult in that the person may be seen by the crews.
                      Of course it may also have allowed someone to escape notice of dirty clothes if he were seen as one amongst many.
                      Does anyone know the answer to this question of when maintenance was undertaken in 1888?

                      That of course mainly applies to the underground lines. Not the non underground lines in the area.
                      The possible use of the railways is certainly something I have looked at in the past..

                      Best wishes


                      steve

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Pierre View Post
                        No, David, it is not one of those. It is you that do not understand.
                        I think I'm able to decipher the sentence: "I have no knowledge at all about those "fixed points"." without any difficulty.

                        If it's all too embarrassing for you then don't worry about it.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                          It depends on your definition of 'close'. Whitechapel is ringed with railways, overground and underground, and I don't think it's physically possible to be more than 800yards from one station or another. So it's no surprise that railways and stations are 'close' to some of the murder sites. But the actual distances range from France's Coles and the Pinching St Torso (found under railway arches), Buck's Row (almost over the cutting of Whitechapel Station, although maybe 200yds from the entrance on the High St) to Miller's Court (1/3 mile from Aldgate E, Liverpool St and Bishopsgate Stations).
                          None of which rules out a connection to the railways somehow (a commuter killer could have chosen the area for it's handy transport links, for example), but that wouldn't help a local killer. The railway policeman is an intriguing theory, but would each railway company have had it's own separate police force?
                          Thanks Joshua, some very good points. It makes sense that a commuter killer would be far more likely to take advantage of the railway links, however, I don't personally see JtR as a commuter killer: if he were, then surely he would have extended his target area over a much wider a read, particularly when the Met flooded Whitechapel with extra officers.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            The first part of this video is quite interesting. I agree that the killer spread out the scenes of his crimes at all points of the compass. As I tried to point out in another thread, which this one effectively highjacked, you could virtually connect the points with a straight line, navigating by the heavens.

                            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IrqtT6K8YY
                            Last edited by Aldebaran; 07-22-2016, 05:50 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Aldebaran View Post
                              The first part of this video is quite interesting. I agree that the killer spread out the scenes of his crimes at all points of the compass. As I tried to point out in another thread, which this one effectively highjacked, you could virtually connect the points with a straight line, navigating by the heavens.

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IrqtT6K8YY
                              Spoiler: Isn't this guy the Ripper in the Sherlock Holmes game?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                                Spoiler: Isn't this guy the Ripper in the Sherlock Holmes game?

                                I have seen only a few of the videos of the Sherlock Holmes game. They are quite entertaining but, the first part of this video

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IrqtT6K8YY

                                with the map where Sherlock explains to Watson in a scientific manner where
                                the Ripper probably lived, where his comfort zone was, according to the murder map, is brilliant. Everyone interested in this old case should watch it, but I am getting the feeling that anything connected to science scares the people on this forum off. Anyway, Aldgate for the killer's residence seems reasonable to me. I am also interested in the fact that Mitre Square connected to St. James Place by a small passage. Not being a Londoner, I am wondering what lay beyond that as far as possible residence goes.

                                Regardless of where the Ripper actually lived, after being jolted [and I seem to be the only one] by the fact that the murder sites are laid out in a pattern resembling the brightest stars in the constellations of the night sky of autumn, looking toward the north-east, I don't now know how these murders can have been randomly committed by some Whitechapel lunatic. It is like the Ripper took a map of the area along Whitechapel Road and superimposed a map of the autumn heavens over it, perhaps marking the key positions with a blob of his red ink. It so incredible that it might just be true. The Ripper wrote in a letter that the police wouldn't be able to "fix" him. Perhaps he meant "fix his position" in a navigational sense. It is a nautical term, which, as Wiki says, "Two or more objects of known position are sighted, and the bearings recorded. Bearing lines are then plotted on a chart through the locations of the sighted items. The intersection of these lines is then the current position of the vessel."

                                Had the Ripper actually been in the Royal Navy? It is difficult for me to believe that an ordinary seaman was well-schooled in navigation by the stars, but someone who had been to the Royal Navy College at Portsmouth might have been. But it's not necessary to have been in the navy to understand astronomy. The Ripper, figuring he could "get away with murder" in Whitechapel, also probably figured the police would be ignorant of what his "fixed points" meant. Just something to think about. I came here on account of the DNA and to get some background on it--but it looks like I've been sucked into the mystery.

                                BTW, as a bit of trivia--did you know that, in the years leading up to 1888 there was an average of 11 murders in London per year--but that in 1888 there were 28?
                                Last edited by Aldebaran; 07-23-2016, 08:13 AM.

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