The GSG. What Does It Mean??

[The Good Michael]

Monty,

I have heard the accusations, but it isn't the first thing someone would think of when Jews are mentioned, in my opinion. No way was I saying you had any antisemitic leanings. Apart from the cricketeering, you are too much the gentleman for such things.

Cheers,

Mike

[Monty]

Sam and Mike,

I have talked to Monty (Neil) a lot about cricket, football (metric) and football (American) and even some about JtR. Never talked religion with him, but nothing has ever suggested he was a rabid anit-semite--au contraire.

Maybe it doesn't come up too often in academia, but like the blood libel, the notion that the Jews were responsible for Christ's death is a popular taunt in some circles and there are references throughout literature (I first came across it as a kid in From Here to Eternity), generally put into the mouths of yahoos. And, Mike, I would add that generally those mouthing it are not fundamentalist Christians but rather what mught be termed "the unchurched".

I am sure that is how Monty meant it when he said it was "basic knowledge." It's also pretty much basic knowledge that frogs cause warts and breaking a mirror brings seven years bad luck, though by saying that I do not support the veracity of either statement.

Don.

Thank you Don, that is indeed the case. Something lost in the translation, maybe I should have used a smilely.

However, as mentioned in my post to Gareth, the positioning of the writing on a tennament entrance rather than the side of a synagogue does kinda weigh against a religious undertone.

It just doesnt fit with the location.

Monty

[Monty]

Monty,

I never hear Christians disparaging against the Jews because of Christ. Never.
There are many ill-conceived reasons for antisemitism, but no Christian I know, and I know many, calls the Jews Christ killers. Perhaps, someone with an odd fundamentalist bent would say such a thing. Fortunately, I distance myself from such. I taught Sunday school for 6 years and I never heard that kind of thing except as a fringe statement, but never in earnest.

Cheers,

Mike

Mike,

Perhaps, someone with an odd fundamentalist bent would say such a thing.

That is indeed what I am referring to.

However, are you telling me that Christians, no matter what their own personal beliefs are on this exact subject are, are not at least aware of this accusation?

Cheers
Monty

[Varqm]

I believe in a simple interpretation of the graffiti. It's a defiant way of saying the jews are a nationality of a higher standard that when they are blamed
it is/will be for something tangible or a big event ..not just thin air.

[Stephen Thomas]

( Most religious/sectarian graffiti has historically been of the more direct "F*ck the Pope" variety.

Hi Sam

Did you hear about the man in Glasgow arrested for painting that on a wall? In court he was asked why he had written 'F*ck the Pope' and he said it was because he didn't have enough paint to write 'F*ck the Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church of Scotland'.

[The Good Michael]

If one ignores the mis-spelling of 'Jews' (understandable) and the double negative (ditto) the message makes perfect sense. It means 'Stop blaming the Jews for everything. We are not the problem'. Probably just a counterpoint to anti-semitic graffiti at the time.

Stephen,

That is exactly my reading of it, and I think to read it otherwise is to insert opinion rather than letting the text be what it is. I will only add, and this is me inserting opinion, that if JTR did the writing, there is a little more emphasis, such as "take that". Again, the textual meaning is very clear to me. The fear of the day was that it would cause antisemitic sentiment, and not that it in itself was antisemitic.

Cheers,

Mike

[Supe]

Sam and Mike,

I have talked to Monty (Neil) a lot about cricket, football (metric) and football (American) and even some about JtR. Never talked religion with him, but nothing has ever suggested he was a rabid anit-semite--au contraire.

Maybe it doesn't come up too often in academia, but like the blood libel, the notion that the Jews were responsible for Christ's death is a popular taunt in some circles and there are references throughout literature (I first came across it as a kid in From Here to Eternity), generally put into the mouths of yahoos. And, Mike, I would add that generally those mouthing it are not fundamentalist Christians but rather what mught be termed "the unchurched".

I am sure that is how Monty meant it when he said it was "basic knowledge." It's also pretty much basic knowledge that frogs cause warts and breaking a mirror brings seven years bad luck, though by saying that I do not support the veracity of either statement.

Don.

[The Good Michael]

Monty,

I never hear Christians disparaging against the Jews because of Christ. Never.
There are many ill-conceived reasons for antisemitism, but no Christian I know, and I know many, calls the Jews Christ killers. Perhaps, someone with an odd fundamentalist bent would say such a thing. Fortunately, I distance myself from such. I taught Sunday school for 6 years and I never heard that kind of thing except as a fringe statement, but never in earnest.

Cheers,

Mike

[Stephen Thomas]

If one ignores the mis-spelling of 'Jews' (understandable) and the double negative (ditto) the message makes perfect sense. It means 'Stop blaming the Jews for everything. We are not the problem'. Probably just a counterpoint to anti-semitic graffiti at the time. I doubt that a frenzied disemboweller would stop to write such a message in tiny letters. Something like 'Top of the world, Ma' in big letters would be more likely to my mind.

Just my two cents worth.

[Monty]

Yes, Bird on a wire was awful. I wouldnt say more likely, equally likely.

That said, its location wouldnt support a religous theory, not with a synagogue within distance.

And I must stress I dont not mean that its basic knowledge the Jews killed Christ, I was referring to the belief.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Monty,

Its a fundemental belief that the Jews brought the death of Christ.

Isn't it perfectly true, though, that the Jews are stereotyped as tight-wads and shysters - and that these attributes are rather more likely to have lain behind any antisemitic motive for the GSG?

Ive never read the scriptures either but I know that. Its one of the basics.

Mel Gibson has a lot to answer for

[Monty]

Gareth,

Ask someone today, they will give you the same answer as 1888 Joe or Mary.

Its a fundemental belief that the Jews brought the death of Christ. Ive never read the scriptures either but I know that. Its one of the basics.

Monty.

[Sam Flynn]

Mention jew to any christian and ask them what their first thought is.

I wish I could do that to someone from 1888, Monty, but I can't. I know that a great deal of Christian charities reached the masses in the intervening period, but if Mayhew is anything to go by, the average slum-dweller's knowledge of basic scripture was pretty poor. It follows that any more "philosophical" riffs on the political/racial nuances contained in the Bible would have been somewhat weak as well.

Besides, the first thing a rather unenlightened Christian might think about a Jew today (and almost certainly back then, too) would surely be "Swindler", "Shirker" or "Skinflint", rather than "Deicide". If the GSG is anti-semitic, then it is likely that one of those three "S's" lay behind it, than the rather more sophisticated and theological "D".

[Monty]

Gareth,

Mention jew to any christian and ask them what their first thought is.

Its religion, not education. And in 1888 religion had influence no matter if you were poor, rich, an Oxford Don or Eastend Docker.

Monty.

[Sam Flynn]

However, they are responsible for the Death of Christ.

(Puts on Monty Python voice) That was the Romans!

Seriously, whilst the specious accusation that the Jews were responsible for the death of Christ had been bobbing about in theological circles since the 2nd Century, I don't find it likely that the notion was to the forefront of the minds of London's comparatively uneducated poor at the time. Even if it were, then alluding cryptically to it was hardly the way of getting one's message across. Most religious/sectarian graffiti has historically been of the more direct "F*ck the Pope" variety.