Time-gap between Eddowes murder and Goulston Graffito

[Michael W Richards]

Sam,

I wasn't debating whether an inordinate amount of poor immigrant Jews lived in the East End, and you know of course Ive seen that and all the other stats maps....I merely meant that it was specifically referenced that the Model Homes were almost completely Jewish, something I would imagine they felt worth noting, and that again, this specific place was a meeting place of sorts for immigrant Jews.

Cheers Sam

[Michael W Richards]

I think the only purpose for that piece of apron been placed where it was by our killer was to give the impression that he lived in the Whitechapel area and he was heading home.

Pinkmoon,

So why didn't he just go directly to that spot after the murder? It would seem that we still have the distinct possibility that PC Long was indeed speaking accurately about whether that apron was there at 2:20. Why go back out to lave a false bread crumb trail...why not do it before a fuss has been raised..minutes after the murder?

I believe the cloth was to validate the GSG authors identity, which is The Killer of Kate Eddowes, not Jack the Ripper...and not as Liz Strides killer. No mention of any Strides or Jacks at all.

Cheers

[pinkmoon]

Pinkmoon,

So why didn't he just go directly to that spot after the murder? It would seem that we still have the distinct possibility that PC Long was indeed speaking accurately about whether that apron was there at 2:20. Why go back out to lave a false bread crumb trail...why not do it before a fuss has been raised..minutes after the murder?

I believe the cloth was to validate the GSG authors identity, which is The Killer of Kate Eddowes, not Jack the Ripper...and not as Liz Strides killer. No mention of any Strides or Jacks at all.

Cheers

Hi,I think he was heading for home and safety when he bumped into eddowes perhaps she presented to good an opportunity to miss after killing her he gets home drops of the organs panics in case people start thinking he is not an inhabitant of the east end goes back and drops piece of apron to give the impression he is local and heading back home.If that piece of apron wasn't there when the police first searched the door way he would have been taking a hell of a risk hanging round for all that time .

[Michael W Richards]

Hi,I think he was heading for home and safety when he bumped into eddowes perhaps she presented to good an opportunity to miss after killing her he gets home drops of the organs panics in case people start thinking he is not an inhabitant of the east end goes back and drops piece of apron to give the impression he is local and heading back home.If that piece of apron wasn't there when the police first searched the door way he would have been taking a hell of a risk hanging round for all that time .

Ahh...so the supposition begins with him murdering Stride first? Longshot to be sure. And you think he needed it for the organs? Im with you there. But following the line of thought above....does he go back out carrying that qualifiable piece of murder evidence merely to suggest he lived in the East End? And why is it by that writing? Is he suggesting he lived in the East End by the direction the cloth suggests, or is he suggesting that he lived at or near that same spot...where Jews, who are the focus of the writing, live.

Cheers

[pinkmoon]

Ahh...so the supposition begins with him murdering Stride first? Longshot to be sure. And you think he needed it for the organs? Im with you there. But following the line of thought above....does he go back out carrying that qualifiable piece of murder evidence merely to suggest he lived in the East End? And why is it by that writing? Is he suggesting he lived in the East End by the direction the cloth suggests, or is he suggesting that he lived at or near that same spot...where Jews, who are the focus of the writing, live.

Cheers

Maybe he was convinced someone saw him at the stride murder or at the eddowes murder so it might have been worth his while to go back and give the impression that he lived in the east end.It would give him a very good advantage if the police thought the killer lived in the east end when he didn't.

[Sam Flynn]

I wasn't debating whether an inordinate amount of poor immigrant Jews lived in the East End... I merely meant that it was specifically referenced that the Model Homes were almost completely Jewish

But, referring to that map, this was true of a large number of premises in that very area. There was nothing "particularly" Jewish about Wentworth Model Dwellings.

[Fleetwood Mac]

...the fact that the club stories differ substantially in some cases regarding the "discovery" timing also hints at a whitewash attempt by the senior staff.

Cheers

It doesn't really. They may have had a few pints and just wandering about inside and outside the club not taking a great deal of notice of anything as you do on a night out. And, so the times didn't add up because they weren't expecting anything and when something happened they were more concerned with running around trying to find someone/the police.

It would be far more suspicious in the event all of the times were in perfect harmony.

[The Good Michael]

But, referring to that map, this was true of a large number of premises in that very area. There was nothing "particularly" Jewish about Wentworth Model Dwellings.

For us there were many areas of Jewish concentration. For someone living in the Wentworth buildings, that would have been their microcosm.

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

It doesn't really. They may have had a few pints and just wandering about inside and outside the club not taking a great deal of notice of anything as you do on a night out. And, so the times didn't add up because they weren't expecting anything and when something happened they were more concerned with running around trying to find someone/the police.

It would be far more suspicious in the event all of the times were in perfect harmony.

I know of 3 club witnesses that were inside when they learned of the body and they stated the time was before 12:45...one stated it was "12:40" and another said it was about "10 minutes" after 12:30. They both seem to support Spooner's contention, on the stand and in interviews.

There is a big problem when people support stories that directly contradict corroborated stories like the above but without any corroboration whatsoever. That's Louis, Morris and Leon.

But I suppose someone had to allow time for the killer to be interrupted.

Cheers

[Tom_Wescott]

Haters be hatin', Tom be celebratin'

This is Fisherman quoting The Good Michael and then responding. I'm just reading this:

I'm going to bring Westcott into this argument if I may. Tom was often pushing LeGrand, but he did it in a much better way and didn't discount other possibilities. This made him rework his LeGrand theories, because he accepted new information. I am interested to see, because he has written the book on the earlier East End murders, what new connections he finds for LeGrand, or if he can no longer pull this suspect's viability together. What I do know is that he will be honest about it either way. That's what we need. Honest evaluation of new data and not suspect-driven twaddle.

It´s Wescott, not Westcott. Sounds like waistcoat.
Have you seen the debate about his book on JTR? I reccommend you read it before you are too sure about what "honest evaluation of new data" is.
Maybe Tom is not all white, and maybe I am not all black ...?


First of all, my name sounds nothing like 'waistcoat'. Why would it? Secondly, what about the debate of my book suggests I've been dishonest in any way? Some challenged some of my points or even outright disagreed with them, but I don't recall anyone other than yourself of accusing me of outright dishonesty? If I'm mistaken, please point me in the direction of that person and I'll be sure to inform them how wrong they are.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

For us there were many areas of Jewish concentration. For someone living in the Wentworth buildings, that would have been their microcosm.

That's a bit too "Zen" even for me, Mike

[caz]

The fact that there are club members living in those Model homes does make one wonder about a connection Natasha, but its my understanding that that location was also significant to local jews as a gathering point for marches and protests.

If the GSG was to try and suggest that the murderer of Kate Eddowes, as the cloth verifies, seems to feel that Jews will evade blame for something they bear guilt in, then I would say it refers directly to Berner Street. Since the senior staff at the club were suggesting openly that this womans murder was "another" in a series of unsolved murders in the area, they could be considered as attempting to cast blame away from the club.

I think the idea has merit myself, but I doubt many others would see it our way.

Hi Mike,

I have a feeling I have queried the sheer logistics of the above (in bold) before, but I can't remember how you reconciled this, or if you made the attempt.

Your theory is that the killer of Eddowes was not the ripper, nor the killer of Stride, who was also not the ripper. So I wonder how you think Eddowes's killer was in any position to know about the earlier murder when he dropped the apron in Goulston, never mind be aware of the kind of fine detail you suggest inspired the chalked message. He'd have needed to be psychic, or in two places at once, to have all that inside knowledge of the Berner St club members, their comings and goings and reactions to the murder there, wouldn't he?

Talk about a Phantom Menace.

Love,

Caz
X

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hi guys, I'm back, now Mike I have a question for you. This is probably a little off topic for this three but I'll try and connect this to the thread (if I can). Mike why do you believe neither of the "Double Event victims" were the work of the Ripper, does your conclusion have something to do with the GSG?

Regards
Mr Holmes

[Batman]

I would say its just a grammer issue that anti-Stridists just happen to enjoy the benifits from.

What I do is pay attention to them, do the opposite, then accidentally land on something canonical.

That MTV generation has been fed too much Burger King. Have it your way, you know?

I like the older generational thinking that grew up with having nothing but the hope of a historian and a former PC to come around to get things together by scouring the depths of what time forgot.

You know what? Sugden could very well be right with Chapman. It could be that simple.

[Wickerman]

You know what? Sugden could very well be right with Chapman. It could be that simple.

Have you read the book by Helena Wojtczak

http://astore.amazon.com/casebookjackth01/detail/1904109225

Hands down the best book written to date on the subject.....
What we are left with is the story of a cold hearted killer; but one who was not the elusive Ripper. The actual hard facts just don’t support this conclusion.

Pretty much the definitive book on Chapman.