Time-gap between Eddowes murder and Goulston Graffito

[GUT]

G'Day JTR

For me personally I've always been of the opinion that he didn't take a direct route back to his lodgings.Since he knew that spectators were gonna want to come out to see the victim's body, my guess is he crept along the side streets, ducking in and out of dark corners in case someone was coming down the street, perhaps stopping at a spot to clean himself and his knife off. Hell, maybe after doing that, he stopped in a pub to get himself a shot of whiskey or brandy or something strong to calm his nerves (unless all the pubs were closed by then). Then, as he was going down Goulston street, he may have noticed the graffiti on the wall and, as a little joke or in order to deceive the public, he deliberately deposited the apron there before heading home.

Yes, I'm one who believes he didn't write t he message but I don't think it was a coincidence that it was jsut left there on a whim.

But doesn't that depend on just where his lodgings were?

[JTRSickert]

G'Day JTR



But doesn't that depend on just where his lodgings were?

Well I assume that his lodgings were back in the East End, away from the City. Whether Goulston St. is on the way or maybe just another diversionary route to get back to his home safely without being caught is something I don't think anyone can answer.

[Sam Flynn]

For me personally I've always been of the opinion that he didn't take a direct route back to his lodgings.Since he knew that spectators were gonna want to come out to see the victim's body, my guess is he crept along theside streets, ducking in and out of dark corners

Possibly, JTRS, however Goulston St is really only a short hop from Mitre Square, and it's also somewhat "tucked away". For someone heading from Mitre Square into Spitalfields, it's an ideal place to dispose of incriminating evidence. Given its relative proximity to the murder site, however, Goulston St a pretty stupid place to return with a bloodstained rag later, with the police out looking for you.

[lynn cates]

locus

Hello Gareth. IF the piece was used for wiping hands, surely it had been better discarded near the exit (choose one) from Mitre sq? He should have finished in a matter of seconds.

Cheers.
LC

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Gareth. IF the piece was used for wiping hands, surely it had been better discarded near the exit (choose one) from Mitre sq?

Way too close to the murder scene, Lynn - especially (but not necessarily) if my intuition is correct that he had been unnerved by police footsteps.

He should have finished in a matter of seconds

Not necessarily, if his hand was besmeared with excrement. That stuff can take some shifting, as we know. There's also a possibility that he'd cut himself, and that the wad of cloth was used as a makeshift bandage. A spell in a secluded doorway, not too far away, could then have served two purposes. First, to wipe his hand properly and second - if applicable - to assess the true extent of any wound. If not too serious, the rag could then have been safely jettisoned, and the killer left at liberty to slip off into the night.

[Wickerman]

It does appear to be an extraordinary long distance to carry a rag if only for wiping the hands. Any number of doorways were available along Duke St. and Stoney Lane as he (presumably?) exited St. James Place.
The last thing a killer needs is to be seen running away from a crime scene wiping his hands, he is going to ditch that cloth ASAP.



This explanation depends on the killer's hands being extensively bloodstained, which is not necessarily the case, and certainly would not require the size of cloth which was sliced off the body.

[JTRSickert]

Thanks very much for that illustration Wickerman (Not the bees! AAAAHHH!)

On average, how long ould it take someone to get from Mitre Square to Goulston St, like 10-15 minutes at most?

[Wickerman]

Hi JTR.

How long it might take is subject to too many variables, if he was running it would be only a matter of minutes. If he was walking slow so as not to attract attention, and perhaps stepping into the shadows as people walked past, it would take him that bit longer.
It must be admitted, we have no real idea which route he took, the suggestion above is only the shortest route but that assumes he was in a hurry.

He could also have exited Mitre Sq. and headed south to Aldgate High Street where it was busier and he would get lost among the hustle and bustle of people being entertained and taking refreshments from all those sidewalk stalls that were open through the night.

It might be worth pointing out that when you wipe blood off your hands, the blood is not removed, all you are doing is really drying your hands, you are not cleaning them.

My first three years out of school I worked as a butchers apprentice, and while the shop was quiet we worked in the back cutting up sides of beef. When a customer came in you naturally grab the hem of your apron and pull it up to wipe your hands ready to serve the customer. The blood is still there in your skin and on the backs of your fingers you cant get it off. All you are really doing is drying your hands to appear presentable.

The piece of apron was far too large to have been removed simply to wipe his fingers, and the distance too great to carry such incriminating evidence.

We do know two organs were removed, how did he carry them away?
Isn't it a little inconceivable that he would put these two organs wet with blood in his pocket, but cut a huge piece of cloth just to wipe his hands?

He carried away two bloodied organs, the most practical use for this piece of cloth is to wrap them organs up so as not to soil his hands & clothes.

[Michael W Richards]

2 things worth considering....the actual size of the apron section is not insignificant, it was a fair chunk of her apron and had one of the two ties still attached. The other is that the section is representative of the fact that if this man was Jack the Ripper, then he must have had other use for the cloth he brought with him to clean himself or carry off goods. Surely if this was Jack the Ripper he would have had intentions of organ theft...having done it his last time out. I think Sam hits on that question with the mention of feces. The colon section he placed between the body and her arm.

I think thats where the cloth he brought was used, and then he needed something else to take the organs...there isnt enough feces or blood on that section to be the instrument he used to clean his hands and knife.

Cheers

[Boggles]

the most practical use for this piece of cloth is to wrap them organs up

Yes I think that's pretty reasonable suggestion, which calls into question what happened to those organs in the interim. Anyone's guess i suppose
1) threw them away on route
2) stowed them away somewhere, (must be near by)
3) ate them

[Michael W Richards]

Yes I think that's pretty reasonable suggestion, which calls into question what happened to those organs in the interim. Anyone's guess i suppose
1) threw them away on route
2) stowed them away somewhere, (must be near by)
3) ate them

Im glad you didnt suggest he pocketed them, because that would sort of eliminate the need for the cloth in the first place, had he been willing to just pop them into his pocket anyway.

Cheers

[Boggles]

thanks Michael
- 4) pocketed after found better use of apron as warning to any pesky interrupting jews

there isnt enough feces or blood on that section

How much was there? apologies if this info somewhere obvious i confess ive not read the whole thread

[Michael W Richards]

thanks Michael
- 4) pocketed after found better use of apron as warning to any pesky interrupting jews


How much was there? apologies if this info somewhere obvious i confess ive not read the whole thread

Some spotting is all, no significant amount of either...and no smears of a knife, or traces of hands being wiped.

Cheers

[Boggles]

if thats true then no chance of said apron used as carrier device for organs.

But we sure it was her apron?

[Sam Flynn]

This explanation depends on the killer's hands being extensively bloodstained, which is not necessarily the case

Blood and fæces, Jon. Eddowes' intestines were, quote, "smeared over with fecal matter" - smeared being the operative word. Unless Jack had a paintbrush, this smearing was almost certainly done by hand, or hands.

and certainly would not require the size of cloth which was sliced off the body.

True, but did he have time to be that precise, or fussy?