Time-gap between Eddowes murder and Goulston Graffito

[GUT]

G'Day Michael

Two big IFs there:

If it was left between 2:20 and when found,

If it was left by the killer.

If either falls down it changes the conclusion about the connection between the writing and the apron.

Also what do you suggest he did with the organs, if he just disposed of them, why? Why take them just to dump them? If he took them back to his lair, why go out again?

That also of course presupposes that the cloth was for carrying the organs if it was just to clean the blood and fecal matter up it makes more sense, but then the question arises why stop and take time to write the message if he still had organs on him?

[Hunter]

...if it was just to clean the blood and fecal matter up it makes more sense...

And based upon Dr. Brown's description and analysis of the apron that he examined, that is all that can reasonably be surmised at this remove, as far as to why the killer took it and what he used it for. The rest is conjecture based on conjecture.

[GUT]

G'Day Hunter

The rest is conjecture based on conjecture.

Which, due to missing evidence is sometimes all we are left with, but sometimes the conjecture comes up with a hypothesis that appears to fit.

[pinkmoon]

One possibility could be that our killer didn't kill stride and when he was walking away with the cloth and human organs he saw or heard the commotion from strides murder so he goes back and disposes of the organs and the cloth .Or another possibility our killer was in a very deranged state after murdering and mutilating a least one women and removing some of her organs and didn't act in a normal way.Or another possibility the police made a mistake after all they are human .

[Hunter]

... The rest is conjecture based on conjecture.

Which, due to missing evidence is sometimes all we are left with, but sometimes the conjecture comes up with a hypothesis that appears to fit.

Sometimes...
But in this case there is forensic evidence that can be considered for what might be a more plausible explanation, without ever being proven a certainty - as little in this saga can or will ever be.

[GUT]

G'Day Hunter

without ever being proven a certainty - as little in this saga can or will ever be.

So true!

[Wickerman]

We could also claim that no killer should ever return to the scene of his crime before the body was found. What kind of nutcase would do that?

Sutcliffe did just that, its the same mentality, they just don't see, or don't appreciate the danger.
We have several examples of killers who make irrational choices. Returning to the streets with the empty bloodstained apron is just another example of this mode of thinking.

It happens.

[GUT]

G'Day Jon

Returning to the streets with the empty bloodstained apron is just another example of this mode of thinking.

I can accept that, but I still would have thought that if he was sensible and/or cautious enough to get rid of the organs, either ditch them or take them back to his lair, he would have been sensible and cautious enough not to go back out with the piece of apron.

I also see a big difference between going back to the scene and carrying around something that ties you, almost unarguably to the murder.

[Jon Guy]

Hi GUT

An massive procedural error, read my earlier post about a witness who purports to have written contemporaneous notes and the doesn't, can't or won't produce them.?

I had read your earlier post, and surely you were referring to a modern court of Law and not a 19th Century Inquest. You can see from the inquest transcripts that Long was not chastised by the Coroner or the Foreman of the Jury. They simply sent someone to fetch the notebook.

As it turned out, Long had stated correctly what was recorded in his notebook. Which also matched what Warren and Arnold had recorded.

I have never known a police officer to be on duty, and on duty his is when giving evidence, not to have his notebook with him.

Is this in a trial or Inquest ? Modern or 19th Century ?
I don`t know modern protocol but wouldn`t the notebook be regarded as evidence, and as such, kept as evidence to be brought to the trial by the person in charge of the evidence ?

As far as I am aware the officer has always been responsible for producing his own reports. .

Yes, he would write a report too, if there had been an incident, and handed in to his Sgt.
There are a number of reports by beat Constables in "The Ultimate Sourcebook". These were handed in to his Sergeant, who would write a report for his Inspector and onwards and upwards.

As a matter of practicality how could a Sergeant or Inspector be expected to compile the reports for every officer under his command?

The Sgt or Inspector did have to produce a report to be submitted to his superiors. I`m not sure how they managed it. We know Swanson and Abberline kept long hours trying to keep up with all the reports that came across their desk.

[Prosector]

I have given evidence at a number of inquests (as a doctor) and it was always emphasised to me that you took the original source records to such proceedings (ie PC Long's notebook). They ARE the evidence, not what someone thinks he wrote down at the time, whether he is correct or not. I am sure the procedure was the same at the time otherwise why was he sent back to collect it?

Prosector

[DRoy]

I have given evidence at a number of inquests (as a doctor) and it was always emphasised to me that you took the original source records to such proceedings (ie PC Long's notebook). They ARE the evidence, not what someone thinks he wrote down at the time, whether he is correct or not. I am sure the procedure was the same at the time otherwise why was he sent back to collect it?

Prosector

Prosector,

I don't see anyone else being referenced as having their notebook with them. The only reason Long was aksed to fetch it is because Crawford was sticking up for Halse since he was aware that Halse's report differed. As mentioned, there is no suggestion Halse was asked to provide his notebook.

Cheers
DRoy

[Bridewell]

Prosector,

I don't see anyone else being referenced as having their notebook with them.

Might that not be because all the other officers had remembered to bring their pocket books? The reference was to the fact that Long had forgotten to bring his.

The only reason Long was asked to fetch it is because Crawford was sticking up for Halse since he was aware that Halse's report differed.

The only reason Long was ordered to fetch it is that the coroner wanted to see it and the only reason it had to be fetched is that Long had forgotten to bring it with him.

As mentioned, there is no suggestion Halse was asked to provide his notebook.

That is because he brought it with him and read from it:-

Mr Crawford: "Read out the exact words you took down in your book at the time"
Reply: "The Juwes are not the men that will be blamed for nothing".

The coroner realised that the wording of the GSG was in dispute and, for that reason, required the officers to refer to their original notes.
Halse was able to do so because he (unlike Long) had remembered to bring the relevant pocket book.

[GUT]

G'Day Bridewell

You keep saying Long forgot to bring his notebook. Do you really think he forgot or was it deliberate?

[Bridewell]

G'Day Bridewell

You keep saying Long forgot to bring his notebook. Do you really think he forgot or was it deliberate?

Hi, GUT,

I would hope it wasn't deliberate.

[DRoy]

Colin,

Might that not be because all the other officers had remembered to bring their pocket books?

You're assuming they brought them.

The only reason Long was ordered to fetch it is that the coroner wanted to see it

The Foreman asked where it was, Crawford asked the Coroner to order it brought in, The Coroner did so. When Long returned, did he hand over his notebook so they could read it? No, he read it outloud so what was there to see?

Mr Crawford: "Read out the exact words you took down in your book at the time"
Reply: "The Juwes are not the men that will be blamed for nothing".

That doesn't mean he read from his notebook. Long answered the same question and he said exactly what was written in his notebook regardless whether the notebook was present or not.

Cheers
DRoy