piece of apron

[lynn cates]

myths

Hello Thomas. Thanks.

". . . if you look at the way in which the majority of the C5 bodies where positioned (legs open, one knee bent). . ."

Isn't this like arguing, "Look, all those women were delivered of babies by the same doctor. ALL had their feet in stirrups, ALL had their legs open." Perhaps that position comes with the territory?

". . .their organs. . ."

were removed in QUITE different ways, assuming you mean Annie and Kate. Their body cavities were entered quite differently too.

". . . possessions placed around them in some kind of structured systematic way."

Annie, yes. Kate, no. The rest, not at all.

Forgive me if I observe that posing, trophy taking, and taunting are all myths that perpetuate a much larger one.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Don't know why, there's no sun up in the sky . . .

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Why did the three men get up to leave and then wait for 3 or 4 mins; and then one of men throws in the remark at the bloody Inquest that it was raining?"

But the remarks were not sequenced. For all we know, it may have rained at 1.30. But IF so, it may have been only a shower. We don't know when Lawende came to the club. We don't know if the previous rain figured in that decision.

It HAD rained. Smith said as much. Was it raining later? Possibly. Was it a downpour? Not according to the evidence and rainfall reports.

Now, about your thinking cap?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

". . . if you look at the way in which the majority of the C5 bodies where positioned (legs open, one knee bent). . ."

Isn't this like arguing, "Look, all those women were delivered of babies by the same doctor. ALL had their feet in stirrups, ALL had their legs open." Perhaps that position comes with the territory?

Forgive me Lynn. I just put on my thinking cap, I hope you will too

Re. the above - show me another example of a murdered woman found with their skirts raised and legs open.
For some odd reason they suddenly started popping up like that in a short time in a small district.

". . .their organs. . ."

were removed in QUITE different ways, assuming you mean Annie and Kate. Their body cavities were entered quite differently too.?

What about Nichols. How were her organs removed?
How was her body cavity entered ?

". . . possessions placed around them in some kind of structured systematic way."

Annie, yes. Kate, no. The rest, not at all.

Eddowes - what about the piece of colon apparently placed by design, nice and neatly between her arm and body?

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"Why did the three men get up to leave and then wait for 3 or 4 mins; and then one of men throws in the remark at the bloody Inquest that it was raining?"

But the remarks were not sequenced. For all we know, it may have rained at 1.30. But IF so, it may have been only a shower. We don't know when Lawende came to the club. We don't know if the previous rain figured in that decision.

It HAD rained. Smith said as much. Was it raining later? Possibly. Was it a downpour? Not according to the evidence and rainfall reports.

Now, about your thinking cap?

Cheers.
LC

I`ll ask again:

Why did the three men get up to leave and then wait for 3 or 4 mins?

[El White Chap]

Hello Thomas. Thanks.

Perhaps I was not clear? I was suggesting that "a blind rage at being interrupted and leaving an unmutilated Liz, then going off to satisfy himself with Kate" does not sit well with a killer who had thoroughly prepared for Mitre sq.

Of course, Gavin Bromley made this observation long ago.

Cheers.
LC

Cheers Lynn. Actually, I was not suggesting the killer was "thoroughly prepared", just that they did make some sorts of basic prep, especially for taking away certain things belonging to the victims. And let's not bring Liz into this shall we, unlike some, the more research I've done, the more I'm still not entirely convinced she was a victim of the ripper. I'm somewhat of an open sceptic.

[lynn cates]

open legs

Hello Jon. Thanks.

". . .show me another example of a murdered woman found with their skirts raised and legs open."

Glad to--when you show me one who had experienced uterus removal. Many uteri can be accessed BETWEEN the legs. Hence, they were open.

"What about Nichols. How were her organs removed?
How was her body cavity entered?"

Weren't. Merely mutilations on the abdomen, etc.

"Eddowes - what about the piece of colon apparently placed by design, nice and neatly between her arm and body?"

So, you include her innards as possessions? At any rate, yes, he placed it there--having inadvertently cut where he had not intended.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no evidence

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

For all I know, for one last gentleman's joke with the bartender.

Seriously, there may have been a shower. But that is FAR removed from your "downpour." No evidence whatever of that.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

C5

Hello Thomas. Thanks.

"And let's not bring Liz into this shall we, unlike some, the more research I've done, the more I'm still not entirely convinced she was a victim of the ripper."

Delighted so to do. Actually, I'd substitute C5 for Liz.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

". . .show me another example of a murdered woman found with their skirts raised and legs open."

Glad to--when you show me one who had experienced uterus removal. Many uteri can be accessed BETWEEN the legs. Hence, they were open.

So, you can`t. Didn`t think so.

and what about Tabram and Nichols. Were there uteri removed ?

"What about Nichols. How were her organs removed?
How was her body cavity entered?"

Weren't. Merely mutilations on the abdomen, etc..

A different killer then? Neither you or me believe that.

"Eddowes - what about the piece of colon apparently placed by design, nice and neatly between her arm and body?"

So, you include her innards as possessions? At any rate, yes, he placed it there--having inadvertently cut where he had not intended...

When they`re removed from the body and placed by design like those things at Chapmans feet, and those excised organs of Kelly`s, yes.

[El White Chap]

Isn't this like arguing, "Look, all those women were delivered of babies by the same doctor. ALL had their feet in stirrups, ALL had their legs open." Perhaps that position comes with the territory?

I would have to disagree on this one. Without going to great unnecessary detail (it's all on this site anyhow), from what research I've done, it seems more than apparent that the bodies (Aside from Liz) were positioned with noticable similarities. Not to say they are all in the same position, but there are symmetries if you look at Annie, Kate and Mary. Left arm over the body in the case of Annie and Mary. Intestines lifted over the shoulder in the case of both Annie and Kate. Kate's and Mary's head turned to the left. Knee raises, here and there. Coincidences or patterns?

were removed in QUITE different ways, assuming you mean Annie and Kate. Their body cavities were entered quite differently too.

Suggesting the possibility, of an individual not medically trained with human anatomy/first-hand medical experience and with making professional incisions into the body for specific organ extraction. Somewhat freestyled, considering that not all removal cuts were done cleanly or correctly.

". . . possessions placed around them in some kind of structured systematic way."

Annie, yes. Kate, no. The rest, not at all.

Annie and Kate's intestines? Quite similar. Mary's "uterus and kidneys with one breast under the head, the other breast by the right foot"...enough.
This all indicates 'placing' of said entities in some kind of structured systematic layout.

Forgive me if I observe that posing, trophy taking, and taunting are all myths that perpetuate a much larger one.

Forgiven! We do know however that with two missing uterus', a kidney and a heart, between 3 victims, we have a killer who took more than the lives of his prey. Some call it a trophy killer (imagine that's a yankie name), others don't. Forgive the Shakespeare quote:

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet"

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

For all I know, for one last gentleman's joke with the bartender.

Seriously, there may have been a shower. But that is FAR removed from your "downpour." No evidence whatever of that.

I repeat, sudden heavy rain
In England we can equate that with down pour. Maybe not in Texas, or wherever ..

[Trevor Marriott]

This has been discussed ad nauseaum Trevor,

The evidence is clear in supporting that she was wearing an apron. Numerous witness statements, in situ drawing etc all lean toward this.

As for the process of removing the apron, you assume it was done post mutilation, not pre.

As for the soaking of a corner, it seems most likely the apron piece either temporarily rested partly in the abdominal cavity or some means near to the flow of blood.

As for an argument, I have none. I have no wild theory to support.

Monty

I am Sorry to say yet again but this time you are so wrong

But of course you have to stick with the old theory it's one you have championed for years to be proved wrong now would do your credibility no good at all

[Trevor Marriott]

I would have to disagree on this one. Without going to great unnecessary detail (it's all on this site anyhow), from what research I've done, it seems more than apparent that the bodies (Aside from Liz) were positioned with noticable similarities. Not to say they are all in the same position, but there are symmetries if you look at Annie, Kate and Mary. Left arm over the body in the case of Annie and Mary. Intestines lifted over the shoulder in the case of both Annie and Kate. Kate's and Mary's head turned to the left. Knee raises, here and there. Coincidences or patterns?



Suggesting the possibility, of an individual not medically trained with human anatomy/first-hand medical experience and with making professional incisions into the body for specific organ extraction. Somewhat freestyled, considering that not all removal cuts were done cleanly or correctly.




Annie and Kate's intestines? Quite similar. Mary's "uterus and kidneys with one breast under the head, the other breast by the right foot"...enough.
This all indicates 'placing' of said entities in some kind of structured systematic layout.



Forgiven! We do know however that with two missing uterus', a kidney and a heart, between 3 victims, we have a killer who took more than the lives of his prey. Some call it a trophy killer (imagine that's a yankie name), others don't. Forgive the Shakespeare quote:

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet"

Come on people when is this fantasy going to end.

First of all we had the killer specifically carrying out the facial mutations

The we have the killer performing surgery to remove a kidney and uterus
In almost total darkness

Then we have the killer cutting a piece of apron from the body which must have been the hardest part of the excercise having regard to the position of the apron after the clothes were pulled up

Now we have killer taking time to position the body and the legs

And all of this in 5 mins max

The fact that the legs were drawn up would have been a hindrance on removing the organs

Now please wake up to reality it's pathetic to see some here floundering on the rocks trying to keep this part of the mystery alive

[lynn cates]

killers

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"what about Tabram and Nichols. Were there uteri removed?"

I already told you that Polly did not. Forgive me if I suggest you read up on the reports.

But ALL those who had wounding in the pubic are likely had their legs open. Not a terribly difficult concept.

"A different killer then?"

Why? They had the same parallel neck cuts.

"When they're removed from the body and placed by design like those things at Chapman's feet."

What part of her body was that?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

no coincidence

Hello Thomas. Thanks.

". . . from what research I've done, it seems more than apparent that the bodies (aside from Liz) were positioned with noticeable similarities."

Yes, I daresay they were prone.

"Not to say they are all in the same position, but there are symmetries if you look at Annie, Kate and Mary. Left arm over the body in the case of Annie and Mary."

Why not Kate?

"Intestines lifted over the shoulder in the case of both Annie and Kate."

The rest?

"Kate's and Mary's head turned to the left."

And Annie? Forgive me, but how many directions can a head be turned?

"Knee raises, here and there."

Some had two knees raised, Kate did not.

"Coincidences or patterns?"

If it's a pattern, why so many exceptions? If it's posing, why not ALWAYS both knees bent? Or why not always turned to left--or right?

IF there were consistency, THEN one could answer the question about coincidence. But here, that's not even a starter.

Cheers.
LC