piece of apron

[El White Chap]

The first two above may actually be the same.

Can we assume your "seemingly unlikely" suggestion is based on a perfectly sane killer?

If so, what type of killer are you looking for, the one with the mind of a Banker, who is not prepared to take risks, or one who likes a challenge and to whom every risk is just fuel for the adrenaline?

Was 'Jack' a risk-taker, or not?

From what we know about the locations of Polly, Annie and Kate, in terms of them being outdoors in public spots where anyone could have walked right into them, I would suggest our killer is definitely a risk taker of sorts. Calculated risks which could have been further aided by decent prior preparation.

[El White Chap]

Hello Thomas. Thanks.

But my point is that this is not a planned event.

Try this. When was the last time you tied your shoes after asking, "Let's see now, how does that go again?"

Cheers.
LC

I take your point Lynn. As I've previously mentioned, I'm a subscriber to the theory that the piece of apron was possibly serving some kind of practical purpose to the killer, not just simply to be left on Goulston Street to be found later. I think that was likely also be part of the 'games' with the police and press, taking another type of trophy from the victim, one which could be quite easily linked to Kate, the killer knowing that the piece of apron would be found shortly afterwards and immediately connected to Kate's murder.

[El White Chap]

I hope so, and it is encouraging to exchange views with someone who has actually studied the case.
(Some new posters clearly have not)

Make yourself at home Thomas

Thank you for your warm welcome Wickerman, and much obliged. I look forward to my time here with you all. The good, the bad and the ugly.

I fully intend to be here for the long haul.

[lynn cates]

es regnet nicht stark

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"I've seen the rain that day described as sudden heavy rain so yes, pouring."

The weather report, which you helpfully provided a link for, indicates about a quarter inch that day. Most of it fell BEFORE 11.00--if PC Smith is to be believed. Pouring? Not quite. At best, a sudden shower.

And there is nothing that causes one to conclude that it was raining at that time. It HAD been raining at some point. They were in the club. It stopped at some point. They left.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"I'm struggling to NOT start the joke off. Who do you think took the apron to Goulston Street?'

Ah, evidence is required for that. Sorry.

Cheers.
LC

Gotcha. Can't blame a fella for trying can ya?

[lynn cates]

non dum satiatus

Hello Thomas.

"Calculated risks which could have been further aided by decent prior preparation."

If there was preparation in the Mitre sq event, would that not preclude the "Double Event" based on "non dum satiatus"?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

games

Hello (again) Thomas. Thanks.

"I think that would likely also be part of the 'games' with the police and press. . ."

Which games would these be, then?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

gently Bentley

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

"Gotcha. Can't blame a fella for trying can ya?"

Indeed. These things must be done delicately and slowly.

Cheers.
LC

[El White Chap]

Hello Thomas.

"Calculated risks which could have been further aided by decent prior preparation."

If there was preparation in the Mitre sq event, would that not preclude the "Double Event" based on "non dum satiatus"?

Cheers.
LC

I'm open to that preparation being learnt and developed from the previous victims i.e. not being quite as prepared as one would have liked during the mutilation of Polly, becoming wise to it and therefore experiencing a learning curve which shaped the prep for the next one. Hope that helps.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

And there is nothing that causes one to conclude that it was raining at that time.

Nothing?
Lawende:" It was raining"

[El White Chap]

Hello (again) Thomas. Thanks.

"I think that would likely also be part of the 'games' with the police and press. . ."

Which games would these be, then?

Cheers.
LC

Whilst not completely ruling them out, I'm not convinced with the authenticity of the various letters claiming to be the ripper. However, that said, if you look at the way in which the majority of the C5 bodies where positioned (legs open, one knee bent), their organs, possessions placed around them in some kind of structured systematic way. This all seems to be a communication wavelength, one of the only solid ones we have in terms of factual evidence in the case. A trademark. They were left to be found in that way to create a reaction, excuse my terminology but these are all part of the makeup of the 'games' I speak of.

[Abby Normal]

Since we cannot be sure about the apparition of that apron piece, it is hard to say whether it tallied with organ-carrying or not. As has been pointed out, it is reported in one instance that a "portion" of the apron was wet, while another source tells us that a "corner" of it was wet with blood. It is also said that there was blood and fecal matter on the apron piece.

In a sense, it´s doing things backwards to say that it all seems to tally with an escape by Lechmere via Pickfords, carrying the organs there in the apron piece, since we cannot know that this is what happened. But the scarcity of information, coupled with the varying judgements about that apron piece allows for such an interpretation, that´s what I am saying.

I favour Lechmere as the killer, Long proposed a dumping of the apron after 2.20, there was fecal matter and blood on it, and a part of the apron was said to be wet with blood more than an hour after the blood would have been put on it (if it was Eddowes blood, that is, and that seems a safe bet). We can conclude that it was no small amount of blood, thus, since that would have dried up more.

So I am suggesting that the killer may have procured the apron piece, put the innards in it, wrapped it up with hands wet with blood and fecal matter and brought it along with him to Pickfords, where he had a place to keep his trophies. He then washed up, and left Pickfords, heading for Doveton Street, taking the rag with him and discarding it on a safe distance from both home and work. As he carried the parcel to Pickfords, the innards leaked blood on a part of the apron piece surface, and that was the area spoken about by Long as being wet with blood. The other marks of blood and fecal matter came about as he wrapped the package around the innards and/or when he wiped is hands on it.

Like I say, this is of course just a working proposition, and it is anybody´s prerogative to say that it is formed to fit with the Lechmere theory (how´s that for foreseeing the future...?). Fair enough - but I find it interesting that the elements are all in place to form such a suggestion.

All the best,
Fisherman

Hi fish
What does lech do after dropping off the apron in Goulston street? The organs are still at pickfords. Does he go back now to retrieve them?

[lynn cates]

Bromley

Hello Thomas. Thanks.

Perhaps I was not clear? I was suggesting that "a blind rage at being interrupted and leaving an unmutilated Liz, then going off to satisfy himself with Kate" does not sit well with a killer who had thoroughly prepared for Mitre sq.

Of course, Gavin Bromley made this observation long ago.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

was

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Of course it was bloody well raining. But I think you will agree that "was" is a past tense. We do not know when it stopped, nor indeed how hard it was falling.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

Of course it was bloody well raining. But I think you will agree that "was" is a past tense. We do not know when it stopped, nor indeed how hard it was falling.

It was past tense cos he was speaking at the bloody Inquest.

Is your thinking cap handy ?
Why did the three men get up to leave and then wait for 3 or 4 mins; and then one of men throws in the remark at the bloody Inquest that it was raining?