Abberline solved the GSG

[Ben]

So if Schwartz didn't cause him to abort (apparently not you say?), then who did?

I think there is a realistic possibility that Schwartz caused him to abort going through with the mutilations for fear that he would return promptly with a policeman before he had a chance to complete them. He still had ample time to dispatch Stride (thus dispensing of a potentially very incriminating witness) and make good his escape before a PC on beat could arrive.

He pushed and pulled her, and knocked her to the ground. This was not an uncommon occurrence in the rough East End.

Which wouldn't be a problem if he wasn't the ripper, and therefore didn't have to worry about his little aborted near-miss with Stride resulting in an arrest as a ripper suspect and being compared to other eyewitnesses.

However, if he was...

All indications are that Stride was taken completely by surprise, no threats, no warnings, she had no idea what was about to happen.

No.

No indications point that way.

Eyewitness evidence in the form of Schwartz indicates that an attack took place around the time she was murdered. Every ounce of common sense should therefore inform us that the two were probably linked, and that BS was almost certainly Stride's killer. If you don't find that behaviour consistent with Jack, then you're better off arguing that Stride wasn't killed by Jack.

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

You talk about Stride being a potentially incriminating witness but a witness to what exactly?

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Inform them of what? That he was the one who pushed her to the ground? It makes absolutely no sense that he would kill her ( and thus risk hanging) to prevent her from informing on him for something that was probably not even punishable.

I think this presumes far too much insight into the killer's mentality, and doesn't seem terrible consistent with the ripper's proven capacity for risk. It makes huge sense, perfect sense, for him to kill her if he was a) too emotionally intent on doing so (if he wasn't, he probably would have suppressed his urge to kill anyone in the first place), and b) wary of the consequences of allowing the woman he attacked to live. As I explained to Jon, if the real ripper was hauled in as a consequence of being identified by Stride as her attacker, there was a genuine risk of him being paraded before other witnesses from previous murders.

But the bottom line is that unless Schwartz was lying or an astonishingly unlikely coincidence occurred, BS man was Stride's killer.

Best regards,
Ben

[Ben]

Ben is likely used to getting caught in the crossfire

You are, generally speaking, more "fired upon" than I am, mate, no offense.

And the idea that BS killed Stride has considerably more popularity and mainstream support than the idea that he didn't.

[c.d.]

Hi Ben,

But this "attack" that you speak of, according to Schwartz, consisted only of pushing a woman to the ground. Even if the BS man were arrested, given the nature of Whitechapel and its inhabitants, he might not face any punishment at all other than a warning not to do it again. That would certainly argue against any necessity for killing her.

As for being paraded before other witnesses, why kill Liz when he has also been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man?

c.d.

[Ben]

Hi CD,

Even if the BS man were arrested, given the nature of Whitechapel and its inhabitants, he might not face any punishment at all other than a warning not to do it again.

Absolutely no way. Not in that climate, at such a location, and with the knowledge that prostitutes were being brutally murdered on the streets of Whitechapel. Anyone suspected of attacking a prostitute in the small hours of the morning was guaranteed to be investigated very seriously indeed as a suspect in those murders, not just the Stride attack. Eliminating a crucial witness such as Stride would therefore have been to the ripper's obvious advantage.

As for being paraded before other witnesses, why kill Liz when he has also been seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man?

Because he was probably too intent on his original plan and, as above, didn't want her to remain a witness. Even if he didn't kill her, Schwarz and pipeman always had the potential to implicate him in the ripper murders if ever he was spotted again and arrested for the attack.

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

No indications point that way.

Eyewitness evidence in the form of Schwartz indicates that an attack took place around the time she was murdered.

Ok, then let me restate the case, all indications of a physical nature, her posture, her hands not used for defense, her clothes not disturbed, the apparently placid facial features, nothing to indicate she had time to respond either physically or emotionally.

The fact remains that what Schwartz witnessed could have been separated from the actual murder by as much as 10 minutes.
A lot can happen in 10 minutes, it only takes 1-2 minutes for another man to walk down Berner St., someone whom we know nothing about.

Every ounce of common sense should therefore inform us that the two were probably linked, and that BS was almost certainly Stride's killer.

The possibility exists, thats all, but there are also other possibilities.

I don't see anything in the existing record which discounts the possibility of Stride actually being with a man in Dutfields Yard right at the time BSman staggered passed.
PC Smith had just seen her standing opposite with another man, either he left the scene, or she took him across the road into the shadows for a bit of 'hows-yer-father'. Why else would she be standing there if not with man?

Stride had not been seen by herself once that night, so why now?

[DVV]

And the idea that BS killed Stride has considerably more popularity and mainstream support than the idea that he didn't.

Yes, Ben.
And it's quite funny to observe how people on this site think their hair-splitting canonical.
If you listen to them, Mrs Mortimer is the ultimate proof of Schwartz' mythomania, BSM isn't a suspect anymore, and in all probability Eddowes and Stride have been killed by two different guys.
Now I need a Talisker.

[lynn cates]

It came without warning.

Hello Jon.

"All indications are that Stride was taken completely by surprise, no threats, no warnings, she had no idea what was about to happen.
This is consistent with the killer being someone else other than BS man."

Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

existence

Hello CD.

"I just don't see the BS man as her killer."

Right. But, if he existed, he was.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

well done

Hello (again) CD.

"If he was that committed to the deed and was just too far gone to stop, wouldn't we expect Liz's body to be found on the exact same spot where Schwartz saw her being pushed to the ground?"

I believe so. And I applaud you for noticing the difference in these two points. This is one of my major complaints against Liz theorists.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

Good old Schwartz !
He has fabricated a suspect that resembles both the man seen by Marshall and Sailor Man.

Hats-off ! (with peak)

[c.d.]

Hello CD.

"I just don't see the BS man as her killer."

Right. But, if he existed, he was.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

I don't get your thinking on this. You acknowledge that Schwartz only saw Liz being pushed to the ground and nothing more and that she was very much alive when Schwartz left the scene. But you don't believe Schwartz's story because you don't think the BS man was Liz's killer. Schwartz never said that he was.

And now you are saying that if he existed, he was. I'm just not following you.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

one big subjunctive

Hello CD. Thanks.

Really quite simple. I don't believe his story. But I don't mind "playing along" to see where the rot leads us. IF he is telling the truth, OF COURSE BSM killed Liz. End of story. I believe that is one of the reasons he was concocted.

What the club needed was:

1. A killer who appears at 12.45--the time the AF article claimed she died.

2. A bully.

3. A Gentile who was an anti-Semite.

Sure, they over-egged the pudding a bit, but only the lads at Leman figured that out.

Cheers.
LC

[Ben]

Ok, then let me restate the case, all indications of a physical nature, her posture, her hands not used for defense, her clothes not disturbed, the apparently placid facial features, nothing to indicate she had time to respond either physically or emotionally.

I'd dispute this just as strongly, Jon.

The presence of cachous in her hands is an argument in favour of - NOT against - the premise that she was fending off an attacker when she died. She would have released them immediately had she been taken entirely by surprise. Unless her clothes were made of crepe paper, it's very difficult to tell whether or not they had been pulled about immediately prior to her death. Facial features are an equally dubious barometer of assessing the likelihood of a struggle.

The fact remains that what Schwartz witnessed could have been separated from the actual murder by as much as 10 minutes.

It's not impossible, certainly, but when we have an attack taking place around the medically estimated time of death, there can be no doubt as to the most probable explanation, which is that the attacker and murderer were one and the same.

Why else would she be standing there if not with man?

Waiting for the next client to come along, presumably.

Regards,
Ben