Abberline solved the GSG

[DVV]

Exactly, Lynn.
And that Marschwartz man cannot be blanc-bleu.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

I don't think I missed anything. As always, you insist that all times are written in stone. I mean to the second and even the nanosecond. You need them to be that way for your argument to hold water. The reality is that there was plenty of time for Liz's killer (be it Jack or otherwise) to appear after the BS man left. The BS man as Liz's killer has way too many red flags associated with it. As for "physical abuse" all he did was push her. And Liz is still alive after Schwartz leaves the scene.

c.d.

The part in bold proves my previous statement cd....there was definately NOT "plenty of time" for someone to appear after BSM would have left....she was possibly cut as early as 12:46 cd....and she was cut before 12:56. There was in fact a very short window in which anyone might pop in. You dont know how long BSM might have lingered...you dont know if he hung around until 12:50 ish....you only know Fanny didnt see anyone outside the gates from 12:50 until 1am.

If youd be honest here cd youd admit that the reason you are willing to argue that someone magically appears in those last few minutes is because you believe Jack the Ripper killed Liz Stride, and you realize that BSM is a lousy suspect for Jack.The truth is.... IF the story is true then he is a great candidate for her killer..by far the best suspect. And hardly Jack-like.

Im not blaming you for trying to fit Jack the Ripper in places he doesnt belong...a lot of folks in this world create individual arguments so that they will support their end beliefs.....like that Kates facial wounds reflect the anger he felt after he was "interrupted" with Liz.....a solution readily acceptable to Ripper believers, but without any supporting physical evidence.

As far as the evidence in Liz Strides case goes, there is no evidence as foundation on which to state that the killer was either interrupted or that he wasnt completely satisfied simply killing her.

And I cannot accept that the man that killed Polly and Annie would not attempt to mutilate the corpse next time round.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;262367
And I cannot accept that the man that killed Polly and Annie would not attempt to mutilate the corpse next time round.

Sorry, really not trying to be an a$$, but it is not a requirement that you accept it for it to be the case. I'm not pro-ripper here but to remove it as a possibilty just might be folly. No disrespect intended.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

You are right, I don't know how long the BS man might have lingered but then again neither do you. You don't know if any of the times you mention are exact but you want us to believe they are Gospel.

What is the difference between Jack "magically" appearing on the scene and simply appearing? Do you know where he was that night? Did he "magically" appear a short distance away and an hour later and kill Kate?

I should probably not have said that there was "plenty" of time for Jack to do his thing but there was definitely time. Estimates of time are simply that. Estimates. Jack only needed a few minutes.

"A lot of folks in this world create individual arguments so that they will support their end beliefs."

I couldn't have said it better myself, Michael.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi again,

Digalittledeeper, youre correct, my beliefs may have nothing at all to do with the true facts here, I can only state that based on my own observations, and in sync with the contemporary medical experts, the killer of Mary Ann Nichols and Annie Chapman ultimate objective was to mutilate the women post mortem and obtain internal organs. Thats also my theory, and it has actual evidence and professional observation attached.

There is no such evidence known in existence that supports a similar theory for Liz Strides killer, nor is there any evidence at all that the murder was prematurely halted. It can therefore be logically concluded based on those facts that the killer of Liz Strides ultimate objective did not match that of the killer of Polly and Annie. In fact the evidence suggests that Liz Strides killer intentionally murdered her, and little else.

So...this isnt my position, Im just the messenger here.

And cd......you will believe what you want to believe, as will I,...but you have the distinct disadvantage of having already made up your mind that one man killed the 5 women in question...and so your perspective on any individual issue is blurred by that final stand. You say that there was "plenty of time", even though, based on rough times and hearsay evidence, there wasnt...when Schwartz says he saw Liz she is between 1 and 11 minutes...roughly...from having her throat cut. She is on the ground, in the street. She has BSM still with her. Your suggesting that she has plenty of time to get rid of BSM, then get into the yard, meet someone else, and then be suddenly attacked and discarded. Does that really seem like a logical bet to you? In reality she could have spent that last 10 minutes simply trying to get rid of BSM...leaving you again....with a lousy Jack the Ripper suspect.

I dont know who killed any of the Canonicals...but I have strong, scholarly suspicions about who didnt kill at least 1 of them.

Maybe trying to solve 1 murder at a time would be more fruitful cd.

Cheers

[caz]

Hi Mike,

You are not even sure that BS man existed, which makes mincemeat of your confident assertion that Stride's killer (if not BS man) would have had no time to arrive at the yard and cut her throat. If Schwartz lied, he could have made the whole thing up or lied about the time he saw Stride being assaulted, so you cannot rely on his 12.45 to argue that Jack (or whoever) could not have come along shortly afterwards. In fact, if you want to take Schwartz out of the equation, you have to take BS man out too, in which case the killer (Jack or not) presumably arrived while there were no witnesses around to know that Schwartz, BS man and Pipeman were never there!

You keep saying that if BS existed then he surely killed Stride (and I don't disagree - I'm open to more than one possibility here), but it's all a bit tenuous if you have doubts that he did exist. You are then left with a blank page.

I would still urge you to look at what happened in the case of Sally Anne Bowman, where her killer - a total stranger - popped up out of nowhere the instant her ex boyfriend left the scene after a long argument.

Love,

Caz
X

[Ben]

"The same", Jon, not just "similar".

Lawende believed the clothes were the same as those presented to him by the police, which carries considerably more weight than a judgment that the clothing was merely "similar", and no, I don't see any evidence that many people "dressed like" Eddowes. There are strong indications that the police considered Lawende's sighting and description be the most important of the many offered in connection with the Whitechapel murders, and it was apparently the only one used in later years as a means of identifying potential suspects. Of all the witness descriptions which we could - and in some cases should - have a problem with, this is definitely not one of them. There is a very compelling reason for accepting that Lawende and co. saw Eddowes and her killer. While the possibility exists that the couple in question were persons other than Eddowes and her killer, the probability most emphatically does not.

I'm with Observer on this one.

Given the time allotted for this couple to saunter down Church Passage, across the square and the attack to commence, followed by mutilations, some have rightly questioned the total allowance of nine minutes (1:35am Lawende - 1:44 am Watkins), for the whole escapade to unfold.

Wrongly questioned, I'd say.

The first doctor on the scene, Dr Sequeria, believed the killer could have completed the mutilations in three minutes, which even allowed time for Eddowes and killer to have hung around for a few minutes longer at the end of Church Passage.

While we're on the subject of distinguishing probabilities from mere possibilities, there can be no doubt that BS as Stride's killer is the most probable explanation (setting aside for a moment the debate over Schwartz's honesty) even if it's not a factually established one. We have evidence of the victim being attacked at the same time as her medically estimated time of death. That ought to a no-brainer, and probably would be if it wasn't for the two-fold preconception that Jack must be responsible and Jack can't possibly behave as BS did. The first of these is open to debate and there are good arguments both for an against, and the second is just plain wrong; based as it is on the erroneous idea that serial killers behave like robots.

The presence of cachous in Stride's hand makes sense if BS was the killer, as it indicates that Stride may have clenched her fists in preparation for an impending attack. The presence of cachous in Stride's hand makes no sense whatsoever if the killer took her completely by surprise.

All the best,
Ben

[caz]

Hi all

we know, thanks to Abberline (for once), that Schwartz had a "strong Jewish appearance".

I believe BSM killed Stride. And had no time to mutilate her, since Schwartz could quickly bump into a constable and bring him back to Dutfield's Yard.

Hence the GSG : I killed twice because a Jew just saw me in Berner Street.

Case closed for me.

Bonjour chez vous.

Going back to DVV's initial post, I have no problem with this. There is also the threatening letter dated October 6 (see below), which fits in very well with the scenario described, as it could easily have been directed at Schwartz, considering that the Star gave his address as Backchurch Lane and mentioned his wife:

You though yourself very clever I reckon when you informed the police But you made a mistake if you though I dident see you Now I know you know me and I see your little game, and I mean to finish you and send your ears to your wife if you show this to the police or help them if you do I will finish you. It no use your trying to get out of my way Because I have you when you dont expect it and I keep my word as you soon see and rip you up
Yours truly
Jack the Ripper

You see I know your address

Love,

Caz
X

[Bridewell]

You don't hang for pushing a streetwalker onto her ass.

No, but if you do so at a time when such individuals are having their throats cut, it tends to make you subject of quite a lot of unwanted police attention.

[Bridewell]

Don't know the bloke's name. But I have never been inspired by deus ex machina arguments--and all to save some silly theory.

As the police at the time believed that there was a 'Jack', and that Stride was one of his victims, is not the 'deus ex machina' argument one which introduces a separate killer?

[lynn cates]

cachous

Hello Ben.

"The presence of cachous in Stride's hand makes sense if BS was the killer, as it indicates that Stride may have clenched her fists in preparation for an impending attack."

Yes. But she died about 5 feet west of where she would have met BSM. I'm sure you're not suggesting he came at her as she backed into the yard?

"The presence of cachous in Stride's hand makes no sense whatsoever if the killer took her completely by surprise."

Well, if both are walking out of the yard, yes, perfectly natural.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

deus ex machina

Hello Colin.

"As the police at the time believed that there was a 'Jack', and that Stride was one of his victims, is not the 'deus ex machina' argument one which introduces a separate killer?"

Certainly not. There is no introduction of something outside the scene to save a pre-existing theory.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Ben

Stride being attacked within the estimated range of her t.o.d. Initially, upon his arrival, Blackwell said no more than 20 min prior. Later it was reconfigured to between 20-30 min. Unless I remember incorrectly. Blackwell arrived at 1:16 according to his pocketwatch. For accuracy purposes.

[Wickerman]

"The same", Jon, not just "similar".

Take another look Ben, Lawende "thought they were the same", alternately, "he believed they were the same", and then "it was the sort of dress worn by deceased".

When something is the same, there is no doubt. When you 'think', or 'believe' something to be the same, then you express an element of doubt.
And we already know from his own lips that he expressed doubts.
Therefore we know that the clothes Lawende saw were 'similar' to those worn by the woman in Duke St.

Whether they were the same (identical) he could not say for sure.

[GregBaron]

Tom and Jerry

It may be unlikely you all but I don't think we can rule
Out that Jack may have been a stalker who swooped
In after all the witnessed parties moved on...

This cat and mouse game is enjoyed by some murderers..


Greg