GSG j or d

[moonbegger]

Yes Michael , very odd indeed ! although Warren did say that he copied it down and enclosed a duplicate in his letter to the HS ..

I considered it desirable to obliterate the writing at once, having taken a copy of which I enclose a duplicate.

And furthermore , he said he copied it down , but his duplicate has five lines of text , whereas Halse had three ..

There were three lines of writing in a good schoolboy's round hand. The size of the capital letters would be about 3/4 in, and the other letters were in proportion.

My guess is , if they were blessed with the gift of hindsight , they may have all been a little more accurate with their observations . but unfortunately we are left to ponder over something we have no way of knowing .

Do you know if any handwritten copies of Halse , Long or whoever's interpretation of the Graffito still survive ? And if Warrens is the only copy to survive, Just how accurate could it really be ?

cheers

moonbegger

[Bridewell]

Dont you find it odd Moonbegger that there was not one officially sanctioned and verified direct copy of the words as they appeared on the wall? 2 Officers at the scene even jotted down different versions of the same grafitto....and there are some fine choices for how Juwes/Jewes/Juewes/ was actually spelled.

When the cloth was discovered, the writing was discovered...making the 2 at least for that moment potentially linked by their source. One would think that at the very least, at that point in time someone should have written it down as it appeared and had a fellow officer or superior officer verify it. Then erase it.

They had the means of preventing it from being seen..regardless of their claims otherwise, and they could have photographed it.

Cheers

Hi Michael,

Absolutely. I think the police got a raw deal in some respects over the Whitechapel Murders, but Warren and Arnold were simply wrong here. There can be no justification for hastily destroying what might be evidence simply because its short-term preservation might heighten racial tensions. Wrong priority.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael ,


Good point ,

I think if it looked close enough like a "j" ( especially in that dimly lit passage) to the first on the scene , others may have also arrived at the same conclusion, especially once it has been verbally described and firmly concluded ( in his own mind) as a specific word .. any one who got to view it after that would already have the expectation of the word ( and the potential danger of it ) and automatically assume the slightly discontinuous d is in fact a j . Maybe the assumption of the word as a whole , and all it pertained to within the graffito , along with its likely affiliation, trumped over all other reasonable conclusions .

As humans , we have this incredible ability to assume something, and our minds will automatically fill in any gaps to make that assumption fit ( a bit like many of us do on these boards ) . I think the same applies with words , especially words that make no sense other than what has already been concluded .

cheers

moonbegger

Dont you find it odd Moonbegger that there was not one officially sanctioned and verified direct copy of the words as they appeared on the wall? 2 Officers at the scene even jotted down different versions of the same grafitto....and there are some fine choices for how Juwes/Jewes/Juewes/ was actually spelled.

When the cloth was discovered, the writing was discovered...making the 2 at least for that moment potentially linked by their source. One would think that at the very least, at that point in time someone should have written it down as it appeared and had a fellow officer or superior officer verify it. Then erase it.

I find it disorienting how they treated this possible clue. They had the means of preventing it from being seen..regardless of their claims otherwise, and they could have photographed it. That they showed haste in making the decision seems to me to indicate they did not make the assumption themselves that the writing and the cloth were linked....or that they didnt immediately comprehend what could be gained by further examination of that possibility.

Cheers

[moonbegger]

Hello Michael ,

I have to admit that its refreshing to see a new idea...although Im not so convinced that multiple sources would make the same mistake seeing a "d" as a "j" for one.

Good point ,

I think if it looked close enough like a "j" ( especially in that dimly lit passage) to the first on the scene , others may have also arrived at the same conclusion, especially once it has been verbally described and firmly concluded ( in his own mind) as a specific word .. any one who got to view it after that would already have the expectation of the word ( and the potential danger of it ) and automatically assume the slightly discontinuous d is in fact a j . Maybe the assumption of the word as a whole , and all it pertained to within the graffito , along with its likely affiliation, trumped over all other reasonable conclusions .

As humans , we have this incredible ability to assume something, and our minds will automatically fill in any gaps to make that assumption fit ( a bit like many of us do on these boards ) . I think the same applies with words , especially words that make no sense other than what has already been concluded .

cheers

moonbegger

[moonbegger]

In the 1891 census there is a 44-year-old German-born sailor named Gustav Duwe on a vessel named "Ida" moored at the London Union Pier.

Nice one Sir ,

Now we need to find out if Gustav had an inferiority complex .. was his family always getting blamed for **** !!

cheers

moonbegger

[Michael W Richards]

Not to my knowledge Beowulf , although it does not have to be someone living in the building with the family name Duwe .. for my mind it is more likely to be the recipient of the message who lived in the building , the target audience to which the message was aimed at , whoever they may have been . It may well have just been a trivial disagreement between two local family's ( Not Mafia Jon

If anyone has that Ancestry.com malarkey , it might well be worth a search ..

cheers

moonbegger .

I have to admit that its refreshing to see a new idea...although Im not so convinced that multiple sources would make the same mistake seeing a "d" as a "j" for one.

On the issue of the location as relates to your theory, I would think that for this idea to have any legs there would have to be a Duwe living at that location. As a general shout out against all Jews it really doesnt matter where the GSG was written, as long as it was in an area populated by Jews primarily. Like the Model Dwellings entrance.

But if you suggest that the GSG was actually a condemnation of a family by name, then it would make sense that it be written very near where a member of that family resides.

All the best

[curious]

Christopher Dewis, 30, born City of London, a market porter living at 13, Grey Eagle Street, Spitalfields.
I guess his surname, spelt phonetically, could be Duwes - or even Juwes or Jewes for that matter.

He's in either Shoreditch or Haggerston in 1885.

A "thumbs up!" on that one, Bridewell! as well as your other research.

[Bridewell]

1891 Census

Christopher Dewis, 30, born City of London, a market porter living at 13, Grey Eagle Street, Spitalfields.
I guess his surname, spelt phonetically, could be Duwes - or even Juwes or Jewes for that matter.

He's in either Shoreditch or Haggerston in 1885.

[Bridewell]

There were quite a few people living in London around the right time with Duwe as a surname.

[Bridewell]

In the 1891 census there is a 44-year-old German-born sailor named Gustav Duwe on a vessel named "Ida" moored at the London Union Pier.

[moonbegger]

I wonder if the police of the day (1888 day) considered it, or thought of it, or what they would think of it.

I think everyone automatically assumed (although being the only misspelt word) someone was trying to accuse the Jews of something .. I think this may well have been the first case of Political correctness gone crazy

moonbegger

[moonbegger]

Hello Beowulf ,

However, do you mean 'Duwe' to be the ripper's name?

Now wouldn't that be something !!! Right under our nose all this time ,, I am still of the opinion , that ( IF the graffito did contain the word duwe ) it may well have been the result of a trivial disagreement between two local family's and unconnected to the Ripper , but who knows ? I have also been delving into various search methods and even made a few calls , and it seems there may well have been a couple of family's with the surname Duwe living in and around the area at the time .. one infact may have been a family of market traders . But as of now, I have got nothing concrete . But will continue digging all the same .

cheers ,

moonbegger .

[Beowulf]

Not to my knowledge Beowulf , although it does not have to be someone living in the building with the family name Duwe .. for my mind it is more likely to be the recipient of the message who lived in the building , the target audience to which the message was aimed at , whoever they may have been . It may well have just been a trivial disagreement between two local family's ( Not Mafia Jon

If anyone has that Ancestry.com malarkey , it might well be worth a search ..

cheers

moonbegger .

I'm really quite impressed with this theory. I'm not as well versed with all the Ripperology as many here are, seem to know it like their own present day events even, but it seems to be quite a sound theory to me.

I wonder if the police of the day (1888 day) considered it, or thought of it, or what they would think of it.

And when I get a chance to look for 'duwe's' I am I did a bit, not much found. However that doesn't mean much, as what we research now is only what is written down from then. May be no one had cause to record the name.

However, do you mean 'Duwe' to be the ripper's name?

[moonbegger]

Is there any evidence of someone named Duwe living in the building where the GSG was written?

Not to my knowledge Beowulf , although it does not have to be someone living in the building with the family name Duwe .. for my mind it is more likely to be the recipient of the message who lived in the building , the target audience to which the message was aimed at , whoever they may have been . It may well have just been a trivial disagreement between two local family's ( Not Mafia Jon

If anyone has that Ancestry.com malarkey , it might well be worth a search ..

cheers

moonbegger .

[moonbegger]

A non capitol d written in chalk ( in a round schoolboy hand ) and not quite connecting to the vertical halfway point of the letter, could be quite easily misread as a non capitol j ( as Warren himself had it copied down )

Further more i would suggest you try it for yourself .. duwes

moonbegger