GSG j or d

[GregBaron]

Cobblestone carman...

Hi moonbeggar,

Cross was what they called a carman. I believe he delivered goods via a cart which I think he would keep in his possession. I remember discussions of this nature but I'd have to go hunting for the link....my impression was that he was pushing his car(t) to work.....not sure what it might look like but I would guess something like what we might call a wheelbarrow.....

I'm sure others know more about this..



Greg

[moonbegger]

Hmmm, I wonder if the killer heard the cart echoing down Bucks Row before Cross came into view.......?

Hello Greg & Mike , What cart would that be then ???? Have I missed something ?

confused .. Unless you mean deimshutz cart in Berner street .

moonbegger

[The Good Michael]

Hmmm, I wonder if the killer heard the cart echoing down Bucks Row before Cross came into view.......?

I would say yes to that, but there were probably other carts and he would have had no way of knowing their ultimate destinations.

Mike

[GregBaron]

Boots are made for walking....

Good comments all,

The whole boot clomping idea is rather curious. I've seen some old movies where the stomp is like a metronome.

The types of footwear and sound on cobblestones of various people of different occupations is a good minutia question...not to mention the frequent rain and how that might have modified the sound....

In the poorly lighted alley-filled maze that was Whitechapel, I would imagine approaching footsteps was the main indicator of company coming....that is if they weren't wearing rubber galoshes......voices also ...carriages and cart wheels would have also had a unique sound...

Hmmm, I wonder if the killer heard the cart echoing down Bucks Row before Cross came into view.......?


Greg

[The Good Michael]

Wouldnt any man, roughly the same height and weight as a constable, make about the same sound if he wore heavy soled boots? And walking the same environment as well of course....in terms of echo potential. I would expect that the tramp of boots would sound different in Mitre Square than they would out on Commercial.

This brings up something that I have no thread for and neither do I think it's worthy of a thread. Realizing that the beats were fairly constant though often reversed, and making the assumption that many policeman had some military or military-like training, I would expect the cadence of a beat-walker to be unbroken and consistent, maybe even between officers. If this assumption is correct, how difficult would it have really been to figure out a man's beat pattern if one wanted to? If our killer(s) was a man who had been involved in crime much of his life, it would have taken no effort to avoid the regular cops.

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Doesn't this seem odd everyone. The ripper is loose and the keystone coppers are goose-stepping in heavy boots.......


Greg

I dont think it was only policeman who tramped about in leather soled shoes either Greg....the ones that didnt adopt the idea of attaching the rubber of course.

Kate Eddowes was wearing mens lace up boots, granted she wouldnt make the same sound due to her size, but boots on cobblestones, unless they have thin heels, make roughly the same sound I would imagine, ....the size of the wearer being the key to the weight and volume of the sound.

Wouldnt any man, roughly the same height and weight as a constable, make about the same sound if he wore heavy soled boots? And walking the same environment as well of course....in terms of echo potential. I would expect that the tramp of boots would sound different in Mitre Square than they would out on Commercial.

Cheers

[Bridewell]

Doesn't this seem odd everyone. The ripper is loose and the keystone coppers are goose-stepping in heavy boots.......


Greg

From a distance of 125 years, and from a Rippercentric viewpoint maybe, but the East End of London was a high crime area and day-to-day criminality didn't stop just because the police were also hunting what we would term a serial killer. Routine police patrols were as much about crime prevention as anything else.

[Bridewell]

Overlap

I want to make a point about times. In all the statements, everyone rounds off times to the nearest 5 minute point. That means they didn't know the exact time ever. Serious leeway must be given for the various time estimations. This of course makes many more variations possible for all the circumstances of every murder.

Mike

Hi, Mike,

This is a perfectly fair point, as is Jon's post which preceded yours. Where Long and Halse are concerned though, allowing for each having possibly spent a couple of minutes on Goulston Street, it's strange (though not in any way suspicious) that their visits seem not to have overlapped at all.

[moonbegger]

I think this is a fallacy.

But we do have many reports from people who were there at the time indicating as much .. are they all a fallacy ?

PC Neil .. From 60 yards ..

I heard a constable passing Brady-street, so I called him. I did not whistle.

One of many newspaper quotes regarding the heavy military style tread of the London Bobby , that everyone seemed to be aware of ..

everyone knew the heavy military tread of the policeman could be heard at night time a quarter of a mile at least. He dared say that military tread was very dear to the military ear of the Chief Commissioner, but it certainly gave timely warning to evildoers.

cheers

moonbegger

[Wickerman]

Greg.
I think this is a fallacy.
The policeman on the beat were not issued with new 'military-style' boots just because Charles Warren took charge, so blaming Warren makes for a false argument. The police always had the same footwear.

Re-issuing policemen with different footwear was not deemed necessary, and probably rightly so, besides it was only the night shift to whom this problem applies.
Some innovative ideas were adopted, like, attaching strips of rubber to their soles to deaden the noise.
Though I can't imagine how this would impede the ability to run very fast.

[GregBaron]

Plenty of time between rounds...

everyone knew the heavy military tread of the policeman could be heard at night time a quarter of a mile at least. He dared say that military tread was very dear to the military ear of the Chief Commissioner, but it certainly gave timely warning to evildoers.

Doesn't this seem odd everyone. The ripper is loose and the keystone coppers are goose-stepping in heavy boots.......


Greg

[moonbegger]

I just came across this Dissertation by Howard Brown , which I believe adds a little bit of weight to my J or d theory ..

At the Wentworth Building, the Ripper’s neatly constructed message took 30 to 45 seconds to put together. An old article in Ripperologist that I put together discusses the mechanics of writing three or four different messages. The longest to perform, a legible and easily understood message, took 30-45 seconds on several attempts on my part. The second word, a persistent point of confusion in the graffiti, could still be misunderstood even after I had told people what I had just written. I feel strongly that the subsequent differences of opinion by the police in their transcription occurred precisely because it was the easiest word to misread. The police on the spot were as prone to making mistakes as anyone else and when faced with the task of transcription, simply made a mistake that people in the 21st Century still do.

cheers

moonbegger

[moonbegger]

Regarding the possible five minute time confusion , do we know the route of Longs beat , and the path that Halse took before he arrived at the GSG site at 2.20am ?

I have always assumed Long was heading south when he discovered the apron , which would have him heading north on his first passing .. Is that correct ? or did he simply walk the same direction twice in a loop ?

The reason I ask is , If Halse was heading north , and Long was southbound on Goulston street at 2.20am .. Then the few min confusion would still not account for them being , at the very least aware of each other, especially when we take into account that ..

everyone knew the heavy military tread of the policeman could be heard at night time a quarter of a mile at least. He dared say that military tread was very dear to the military ear of the Chief Commissioner, but it certainly gave timely warning to evildoers.

But if Long was Northbound on his first round , then a few min's confusion may well be the answer .

cheers

moonbegger

[The Good Michael]

I want to make a point about times. In all the statements, everyone rounds off times to the nearest 5 minute point. That means they didn't know the exact time ever. Serious leeway must be given for the various time estimations. This of course makes many more variations possible for all the circumstances of every murder.

Mike

[Wickerman]

Both Halse and Long say "about 20 past two". Not "exactly", just "about".

Unless they both wore a watch, how would they know? The clock, if there was one in hearing distance, would chime at 2:15.
And why would they look at their watch on walking the street anyway, they wouldn't have any reason to.
So isn't it reasonable to assume they were both estimating the time, and they could easily have missed each other by five minutes.