Did Halse do it ?

[moonbegger]

The police did not know that the victim was the woman who had been at the Bishopgate nick for quite some time after the murder. She wasn't even identified until Tuesday.

Hello Hunter ,

Yes it would appear so !

Daily News 3rd Oct

Some information furnished by two City police constables to their superior officers yesterday morning supplied what is at present the only clue to the identity of the woman murdered in Mitre-square. The policemen, having seen the mutilated body at the mortuary in Golden-lane, expressed the opinion that it was that of a woman who had been taken to the station by them a short time ago when under the influence of drink.

Echo 2nd oct

A reporter, writing at two o'clock, said: - Some information has just come to light in connection with the woman murdered in Mitre-square, to which the authorities attach considerable value. It appears that two City police-constables, who have seen the body, believe that it is that of a woman whom they had in custody some time ago on a charge of drunkenness. This woman, when charged, lived at a lodging-house in the neighbourhood of Fashion-street, Whitechapel, and the police are now making inquiries in that district as to whether such a person has been there recently. The constables, however, while being of opinion that the woman found in Mitre-square is the same as the one they had in custody, are not quite positive. The police are, therefore, endeavouring to discover whether the woman who was in custody is now alive, and if such is the case the particular incident so far will of course end.

"Some time ago" and a "short time ago" ? I did think i read somewhere that she was ID in the Square due to her clothing! Looks like i may have misread myself .. So we know one of the officers was PC Robinson , but who was the other ?

And if it seems unlikely that it was Halse himself who threw it all together .. Is there another candidate ? Who was the other PC with Robinson who was present at the time of the "Nothing" comment ? And who else would have had both opportunity and desire to cause such a kerfuffle between the two forces ?

The Hat stand is still standing , we may just need a new hat

cheers

moonbegger .

[Michael W Richards]

Im suspicious of the fact that Halse, Marriott and Outram were "searching" nearby streets that night....for what? The latest East End killing at that time was 3 weeks earlier, there were no immediate threats that required their attentions, that we are aware of. And there had never been any indication that the killer might act within the city limits.

Just happened to be nearby....hmm.

There are so many policemen near Mitre Square when Kate is killed one might wonder why none of them were viable witnesses to anything about that crime that night. No cop saw Kate alive after her release from Bishopsgate, and no-one saw a man leave the square or area quickly.

[Bridewell]

Suspected Persons

Im suspicious of the fact that Halse, Marriott and Outram were "searching" nearby streets that night....for what? The latest East End killing at that time was 3 weeks earlier, there were no immediate threats that required their attentions, that we are aware of. And there had never been any indication that the killer might act within the city limits.

Just happened to be nearby....hmm.

There are so many policemen near Mitre Square when Kate is killed one might wonder why none of them were viable witnesses to anything about that crime that night. No cop saw Kate alive after her release from Bishopsgate, and no-one saw a man leave the square or area quickly.

Hi Michael,

The wording of McWilliams' report dated 27th October 1888 does indeed include a reference to 'searching' by these three officers:

"Detective Constables Halse, Marriott & Outram who had been searching the passages of houses in the immediate neighbourhood of the spot where the murder was committed (& where the doors are left open all night) on hearing of the murder at 1.55am, at once started off in various directions to look for suspected persons".

'Suspected person' was a particular category under the 1824 Vagrancy Act which alluded to 'idle & disorderly person', 'suspected person' or 'reputed thief' and (eventually - the worst category) 'rogue & vagabond':

"Persons committing certain offences to be deemed rogues and vagabonds.

Every person committing any of the offences herein-before mentioned, after having been convicted as an idle and disorderly person; every person pretending or professing to tell fortunes, or using any subtle craft, means, or device, by palmistry or otherwise, to deceive and impose on any of his Majesty’s subjects; every person wandering abroad and lodging in any barn or outhouse, or in any deserted or unoccupied building, or in the open air, or under a tent, or in any cart or waggon, not having any visible means of subsistence] and not giving a good account of himself or herself; every person wilfully exposing to view, in any street, road, highway, or public place, any obscene print, picture, or other indecent exhibition]; every person wilfully openly, lewdly, and obscenely exposing his person in any street, road, or public highway, or in the view thereof, or in any place of public resort, with intent to insult any female; every person wandering abroad, and endeavouring by the exposure of wounds or deformities to obtain or gather alms; every person going about as a gatherer or collector of alms, or endeavouring to procure charitable contributions of any nature or kind, under any false or fraudulent pretence; every person being found in or upon any dwelling house, warehouse, coach-house, stable, or outhouse, or in any inclosed yard, garden, or area, for any unlawful purpose; every suspected person or reputed thief, frequenting any river, canal, or navigable stream, dock, or basin, or any quay, wharf, or warehouse near or adjoining thereto, or any street, highway, or avenue leading thereto, or any place of public resort, or any avenue leading thereto, or any street, or any highway or any place adjacent to a street or highway;] with intent to commit an arrestable offence; and every person apprehended as an idle and disorderly person, and violently resisting any constable, or other peace officer so apprehending him or her, and being subsequently convicted of the offence for which he or she shall have been so apprehended; shall be deemed a rogue and vagabond, within the true intent and meaning of this Act;and , subject to section 70 of The Criminal Justice Act 1982,] it shall be lawful for any justice of the peace to commit such offender (being thereof convicted before him by the confession of such offender, or by the evidence on oath of one or more credible witness or witnesses,) to the house of correction, for any time not exceeding three calendar months".

For the practical application of this which became known (through abuse in some quarters) as the 'sus law' a 'suspected person' was someone who was acting suspiciously and a 'reputed thief' was someone with known convictions for dishonesty.

Why detectives would be occupied in the small hours of the morning with searching for offenders contravening the Vagrancy Act is anybody's guess, but that's what McWilliams' report suggests to me.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

Hello Hunter ,

Yes it would appear so !

Daily News 3rd Oct

Echo 2nd oct

"Some time ago" and a "short time ago" ? I did think i read somewhere that she was ID in the Square due to her clothing! Looks like i may have misread myself .. So we know one of the officers was PC Robinson , but who was the other ?

And if it seems unlikely that it was Halse himself who threw it all together .. Is there another candidate ? Who was the other PC with Robinson who was present at the time of the "Nothing" comment ? And who else would have had both opportunity and desire to cause such a kerfuffle between the two forces ?

The Hat stand is still standing , we may just need a new hat

cheers

moonbegger .

PC George Simmons.

Monty

[sleekviper]

How does that work? If they are searching passage ways and unlocked doors, what happens when a door is not locked? If a guest, owner, or night watchman go out in the night and leave the door unlocked for a short period, do they come back to a locked door, or police with questions? I can see placing the location of this search in terms of distance from the future murder site, but what is the next step to justify opening a door when there has been no crime? Are they looking for something, before going off in various directions to look for someone?

[Michael W Richards]

Why detectives would be occupied in the small hours of the morning with searching for offenders contravening the Vagrancy Act is anybody's guess, but that's what McWilliams' report suggests to me.

Regards, Bridewell.

Thanks for the full response Bridewell, and for the above capture...why indeed.

I would think Detectives, not mere Constables, would have better things to do with their time, and the 3 of them coincidentally searching streets nearby is very strange to me. I wonder if the police followed Kate when she left the station, thinking that she might be meeting someone they wanted to arrest.

Cheers

[Cogidubnus]

Why detectives would be occupied in the small hours of the morning with searching for offenders contravening the Vagrancy Act is anybody's guess, but that's what McWilliams' report suggests to me.

I would think Detectives, not mere Constables, would have better things to do with their time, and the 3 of them coincidentally searching streets nearby is very strange to me.

Hi Colin, Michael

Yet this was what the police as a whole did. It apparently formed a large part of their duties (cf People of the Abyss in which homeless people weren't allowed to sleep during the night, yet as soon as the parks opened they were all in there trying to sleep)...

Like you, I'm puzzled why detectives should be specifically so employed, but perhaps it was because, with the WCMs, the police were short-handed and to some extent shared duties?

All the best

Dave

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Colin, Michael

Yet this was what the police as a whole did. It apparently formed a large part of their duties (cf People of the Abyss in which homeless people weren't allowed to sleep during the night, yet as soon as the parks opened they were all in there trying to sleep)...

Like you, I'm puzzled why detectives should be specifically so employed, but perhaps it was because, with the WCMs, the police were short-handed and to some extent shared duties?

All the best

Dave

Hi Dave,

Im not sure how the City would be left shorthanded by the WCM's Dave, it wasnt really their problem at all until that night.

I think its safe to say that City Detectives didnt as a rule poke about alleys and look in doorways for vagrants, but I would think that the Met beat Cops did, and were mandated to.

So why were suits searching nearby streets on that night? Expectation of crime....investigating a crime....a stakeout.....being used to monitor and/or block some egress/ingress somewhere...?

This was the weekend of the Post Office Robbery....maybe investigating a tip?

Its odd,.... to me anyway.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Michael

According to Major Smith, he had a large proportion of his constables dressed in plain clothes just sitting around on doorsteps enjoying themselves, waiting for nothing more than the ripper to appear on his patch...

All the best

Dave

[Lechmere]

I don't think there is much of a mystery here.
The three detectives where 'checking out' what must have been a high crime area - incidentally very close to where the 'Houndsditch outrage' was to take place - a commercial district in the city that comprised narrow and dark alleys, but adjacent to an area reputed to harbour many criminals.
By chance the ripper struck quite close by.
The three detectives effectively corroborated each other - you would gave to suggest a conspiracy between them for any of the three to be guilty of murder of of mischief with the graffiti.
They only looked for 'suspicious persons' after being advised of the murder. That is also rather an obvious task for them to be redirected towards.

[moonbegger]

Halse ..
On Saturday, Sept. 29, pursuant to instructions received at the central office in Old Jewry, I directed a number of police in plain clothes to patrol the streets of the City all night.

Is there any indication as to why instructions were sent to patrol the streets of the city all night ?

moonbegger .

[Monty]

This is just to clarify and not designed to pick up on anyone,

Halse et al were Detective Constables. Now whilst they were regarded as the creme of constables they still held the same rank as a uniformed Constable. Therefore technically they do not outrank their uniformed counterparts.

I'm working from memory I believe Smith had actually sent the order out some period before Eddowes was murdered. City were watching events across the jurisdiction boarder and were dammed to be unprepared should a murder occur on their patch.

He ordered that CID and plain clothes (a seperate entity - plain clothes were uniform temporarily transferred into civvies to supplement CID, focusing on minor work) to watch 'suspicious couples', by that he meant prostitutes and their clients. And these frequent allyways and passageways.

As Edward states, there is nothing to be read into this.

Monty

[lynn cates]

rank

Hello Neil. Forgive my confusion, but I thought Outram had made sergeant? Was that AFTER the WCM?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Halse et al were Detective Constables. Now whilst they were regarded as the creme of constables they still held the same rank as a uniformed Constable.

Hi Monty,

As true now as it was then. I hate it when newspapers refer to an officer as being 'promoted' to detective.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Monty]

Yes Lynn, it was after 88.

Marriott did a lot of work on fraud cases, it kinda made his name.

Indeed Colin,

CID DCs do have an air of superiority over uniform constables however the ranks are as they are. Uniformed Sergeant is superior to a Detective Constable in rank.

However, the sharpest uniformed Constables were headhunted or encouraged to apply. They liked to sift out what they deemed as stars and boy, do these Guys know it.

Monty