'the biggest blunder in the search for Jack the Ripper'

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

I agree that it is unlikely the police would have fed her, not only because she was drunk, but because the intention was evidently to release her as soon as she sobered up. She does seem to have done that remarkably quickly though, don't you think. 8.45pm (or thereabouts) she is so drunk she can't stand unsupported; 1am she's supposedly sober. Most drunks don't sober up to that extent in four and a quarter hours. What do you think:
Still drunk, but no longer incapably so?
The alternative is that, when arrested, she was nowhere near as drunk as she made herself out to be?

Regards, Bridewell.

The police dont feed drunks til they sober up simply because drunks have a habit of vomitting and with a full stomach they are likley to choke on recently digseted food.

As to how drunk she really was is open to how drunk the arresting officer perceived her to be i think the offence was "drunk and incapable" obvioulsy after arrest and being taken to the station the Staiton Sgt would have to be satisified that given the circumstances the arrest was lawful.

As you say some drunks sober up quicker than others but that doesnt always mean to say that will get them out quicker if a police station is busy with prisoners they will wait till it quietens down before having the time to assess when a person is fit to be released. In some police stations today they will be given a breathelyser test to asses their state.

Drunks like all prisoners are supposed to be checked at least every hour in some case half hour checks. In the case of drunks in the first few hours if they are sleeping they will be checked and left to sleep until they usually wake up themselves. Edowes would have probably been tired as well as drunk which would have added to sleep time etc.

In the case of Eddowes this would seem to be the case that she woke up and started to shout and sing. In any event the policy would be to get rid of drunks early morning before the shifts change over.

[Bridewell]

Thanks

The only slight problem with that is that the carotid artery is a) one of the largest blood vessels and b) is under high pressure. If you cut a carotid it spurts. It's very, very difficult to stop blood pulsing out - there are special surgical clamps made for such a purpose. When I used to be a St John Ambulance First Aid instructor we used to advise people that if a carotid was severed the only way to stop it bleeding was to push your fingers into the cut and try and hold the bleeding end closed with pressure from thumb and forefinger, which was going to be difficult because of the slipperiness of the blood and the pressure in the artery. Even if you could manage that it was highly likely that blood would escape.

You also needed to pray that a paramedic turned up quickly with a carotid clamp.

I don't think there's very much chance of a knife blade severing a carotid artery without getting blood on it - but depending on the swiftness of the cut it's possible that the blood could be 'wiped' as it passes through adjacent flesh.

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the additional information on this. I can see where Tom is coming from, but I couldn't see how a major artery could be severed without leaving at least a trace of blood. You've expressed my chain of thought much more eloquently than I could have done, and from the background of medical training. Much appreciated.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

Sobering Up

Nit picking again are you I said it is unlikely. She would not have been fed following her arrest due to her being drunk so thats 8 hours without food.

Alcoholics prefer drink to food

Hi Trevor,

I agree that it is unlikely the police would have fed her, not only because she was drunk, but because the intention was evidently to release her as soon as she sobered up. She does seem to have done that remarkably quickly though, don't you think. 8.45pm (or thereabouts) she is so drunk she can't stand unsupported; 1am she's supposedly sober. Most drunks don't sober up to that extent in four and a quarter hours. What do you think:
Still drunk, but no longer incapably so?
The alternative is that, when arrested, she was nowhere near as drunk as she made herself out to be?

Regards, Bridewell.

[PhiltheBear]

Hi Bride. The knife is slicing as it travels through. The blood can't come out until the opening is made, and the opening isn't made until the knife has moved on. Now, of course, I'm talking about quick, single slices, such as that made on Stride. If you're sawing at the neck, you'll get covered in blood.

The only slight problem with that is that the carotid artery is a) one of the largest blood vessels and b) is under high pressure. If you cut a carotid it spurts. It's very, very difficult to stop blood pulsing out - there are special surgical clamps made for such a purpose. When I used to be a St John Ambulance First Aid instructor we used to advise people that if a carotid was severed the only way to stop it bleeding was to push your fingers into the cut and try and hold the bleeding end closed with pressure from thumb and forefinger, which was going to be difficult because of the slipperiness of the blood and the pressure in the artery. Even if you could manage that it was highly likely that blood would escape.

You also needed to pray that a paramedic turned up quickly with a carotid clamp.

I don't think there's very much chance of a knife blade severing a carotid artery without getting blood on it - but depending on the swiftness of the cut it's possible that the blood could be 'wiped' as it passes through adjacent flesh.

[Jon Guy]

I doubt that amounted to sausage egg bacon chips fried bread and hash browns.

Don`t be silly, Trevor. Hash browns hadn`t yet come across the pond. According to the Star, Kelly and Eddowes enjoyed McMuffins and croissants, washed down with lashings of cappucino.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor



Didn`t John Kelly and Eddowes enjoy a hearty breakfast with a mug of tea that Sat morning?

I doubt that amounted to sausage egg bacon chips fried bread and hash browns.

[Trevor Marriott]

Wanna cite your evidence for that Trevor?

Bearing in mind she had enough money to end up drunk against a shop front.

Monty

Nit picking again are you I said it is unlikley. She would not have been fed following her arrest due to her being drunk so thats 8 hours without food.

Alcholholics prefer drink to food

[Jon Guy]

Hi Trevor

. It is unlikley that Eddowes had eaten all of that day and probaly not much the day before.

Didn`t John Kelly and Eddowes enjoy a hearty breakfast with a mug of tea that Sat morning?

[Monty]

The amount of fecal matter in the bowel and passing through intestines is determined by the amount of food consumed. It is unlikley that Eddowes had eaten all of that day and probaly not much the day before.

Wanna cite your evidence for that Trevor?

Bearing in mind she had enough money to end up drunk against a shop front.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Dr. Brown described the apron piece being covered with blood and fecal matter and that it looked like it had been wiped with hands or a knife.

You are wrong Dr Brownnever said it was covered in blood. I have set out below the various descriptions of the apron piece as given by those invloved with it. Note they all differ so you pays you money and you takes your choice depending on what scenario you want to beleive.

PC Long official statement –“I found a piece of apron covered in blood”

P.C. Long reported ' ....about 2.55am I found a portion of a womans apron which I produced, there appeared blood stains on it one portion was wet “

Pc Long – “one corner of which was wet with blood”.

Dr Brown – “I fitted that portion which was spotted with blood to the remaining portion, The blood spots were of recent origin”

Dr Brown - Some blood and apparently faecal matter was found on the portion found in Goulston Street"

Dr. Brown -"On the piece of apron brought on there were smears of blood on one side as if a hand or knife had been wiped on it”

Stain = A spot, mark, or discoloration

What the killer probably didn't count on was cutting into the large intestines and having that stuff start coming out all over the place. He made another cut two feet up and discarded the section so it wouldn't be leaking down where he was attempting to extract the uterus. To keep the remaining portion of the colon attached to the rectum from also leaking he tucked that part into the rectum.
From Brown's written testimony:

“...the sigmoid flexure was invaginated into the rectum very tightly.”

His hands, knife and the uterus extracted were probably covered in excrement. Dealing with blood is one thing, but dealing with this is quite another and not easy to just wipe away quickly. Someone may have been approaching by that point. He cuts the apron, wipes the knife and puts it back in its scabbard or wherever he conceals it, bundles the goods in it and gets the hell out of there.

And all of this in a total of five minutes in the dark, wow a feat of surgical dexterity

He's got a mess but right now escape is his priority and getting to a safe distance. By the time he reaches the Wentworth apartments he finally feels safe enough to stop, enter the enclave there and remove the organs, wipe them off, wipe his hands off and place the organs in his pocket or whatever he may have brought along to contain them. He no longer needs this incriminating evidence so he discards it right there and moves on. (writing the chalk message is optional).

If he takes them away in the apron piece which has been proved he didnt then why would he transfer them when he has them already wrapped

None of those scenarios you describe are consistent with any of the above statements and medical tests have proved this to be the case

The point is that this killer did have fecal matter to deal with. Mr. Brown even noticed it on the intestines thrown over the victim's shoulder. There was fecal matter on the apron. Anyone who has field dressed an animal and has inadvertently cut into the intestines knows exactly what happens when this occurs.

The amount of fecal matter in the bowel and passing through intestines is determined by the amount of food consumed. It is unlikley that Eddowes had eaten all of that day and probaly not much the day before.

[Scott Nelson]

34 pages of this nonsense and counting. There was no blunder in the search. Everyone did what they could under the circumstances.

[Hunter]

Dr. Brown described the apron piece being covered with blood and fecal matter and that it looked like it had been wiped with hands or a knife.

What the killer probably didn't count on was cutting into the large intestines and having that stuff start coming out all over the place. He made another cut two feet up and discarded the section so it wouldn't be leaking down where he was attempting to extract the uterus. To keep the remaining portion of the colon attached to the rectum from also leaking he tucked that part into the rectum.
From Brown's written testimony:

“...the sigmoid flexure was invaginated into the rectum very tightly.”

His hands, knife and the uterus extracted were probably covered in excrement. Dealing with blood is one thing, but dealing with this is quite another and not easy to just wipe away quickly. Someone may have been approaching by that point. He cuts the apron, wipes the knife and puts it back in its scabbard or wherever he conceals it, bundles the goods in it and gets the hell out of there.

He's got a mess but right now escape is his priority and getting to a safe distance. By the time he reaches the Wentworth apartments he finally feels safe enough to stop, enter the enclave there and remove the organs, wipe them off, wipe his hands off and place the organs in his pocket or whatever he may have brought along to contain them. He no longer needs this incriminating evidence so he discards it right there and moves on. (writing the chalk message is optional).

The point is that this killer did have fecal matter to deal with. Mr. Brown even noticed it on the intestines thrown over the victim's shoulder. There was fecal matter on the apron. Anyone who has field dressed an animal and has inadvertently cut into the intestines knows exactly what happens when this occurs.

[Archaic]

Sure Tom, sure...Whatever you say...Sure, I believe you, old pal!...

Your friend,
Sleepless In Seattle

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Archaic. No, I just research and apply a little common sense. And I've seen videos. Hold your hand up and slice it across the air. You'll see how fast it moves. With a sharp knife it would only move a tiny bit slower than that. You can see how far your hand is now away from the imaginary neck before the blood would even have a chance to start coming out.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Archaic]

Hi Bride. The knife is slicing as it travels through. The blood can't come out until the opening is made, and the opening isn't made until the knife has moved on. Now, of course, I'm talking about quick, single slices, such as that made on Stride. If you're sawing at the neck, you'll get covered in blood.

Hey Tom... you're kind of talking like you've tried it.



Archaic