'the biggest blunder in the search for Jack the Ripper'

[mariab]

The knife is moving...the neck is stationary...by the time the blood is reacting to the fresh opening in the artery, the knife has moved well out of the way. So yes, the blood has absolutely no choice but to spurt in a different direction that from where the knife is at that moment.

Well, duh.

There used to be many, many videos online of foreign terrorists or what not cutting throats. We're talking a lot of years ago.

Only one I've seen (with that journalist Reed/Reid?), I've only seen the short (censored) vid shown in the news.

But FYI, the best special effects men create their effects from hard research. If you want many of Tom Savini's throat slashes from his earlier slasher films, you are more or less seeing what a real throat cutting looks like.

You're the expert on horror movies. As for Savini, I haven't even seen Friday the 13, though I've seen some stuff he's done with Dario Argento. Which I hardly recall, since I was a kid.

[Monty]

Statement of what was probable fact.

I can rattle my sabre just as much as you can yours

Statement of probable fact. Ah, the West Midland Police approach huh?

Yes, you rattle.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Eddowes was deemed sober enough to be released.

Hutt engaged her is conversation and his testimony indicates she was aware of the situation, her presonses were lucid.

And yes Trevor, nit picking. As opposed to making unfounded sweeping statements.

Monty

Statement of what was probable fact.

I can rattle my sabre just as much as you can yours

[Tom_Wescott]

Absolutely.
Still, wondering if the blood from the carotid springs out away from the knife.

I think I would have better luck explaining this stuff to a group of first graders...though i'd likely end up in jail for that!

The knife is moving...the neck is stationary...by the time the blood is reacting to the fresh opening in the artery, the knife has moved well out of the way. So yes, the blood has absolutely no choice but to spurt in a different direction that from where the knife is at that moment.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

What kind of videos? Snuff? Slaughtering animals? (Which I hope not.) If it's just horror Tom, they're not realistic.

There used to be many, many videos online of foreign terrorists or what not cutting throats. We're talking a lot of years ago. Very disturbing stuff, but not near as disturbing as watching a man be burned alive. That's no way to go. And thank you for telling me that horror movies aren't real. But FYI, the best special effects men create their effects from hard research. If you want many of Tom Savini's throat slashes from his earlier slasher films, you are more or less seeing what a real throat cutting looks like.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

There's very little blood pressure in the capilliaries in your hand - the carotid is a large artery supplying blood to the brain at high pressure.

Absolutely.
Still, wondering if the blood from the carotid springs out away from the knife.

[Tom_Wescott]

Bride and PTB,

Of course the artery is going to spurt. I'm not a dumbass. My point is that it's an irrefutable medical fact that between cut and spurting, there is a delay. A very brief delay, but much greater than the 1/10th of a second it takes your fast moving hand to wizz the 6 inches past the cut to get the knife and yourself out of blood's way. This is the law of physics. It's a fact. I say again, that in the case of Stride, there would have been no blood on the killer or his knife unless he wanted there to have been.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[PhiltheBear]

Only experience I got on this is deeply hacked fingers through a knife or through my ice skates blades (which I keep SUPER sharp) and yep, it takes a couple seconds until the blood begins to pour out, and def no blood on the knife and especially no blood on the blades. But cut your hand while opening a can, and the blood ends up on the can as well.

There's very little blood pressure in the capilliaries in your hand - the carotid is a large artery supplying blood to the brain at high pressure.

I think the thing to retain from this is that cutting a throat swiftly from behind will leave less blood (and body fluids) on a knife than trying to extract organs without really knowing what you're doing. (Duh.)

Cutting a throat isn't the same as cutting a carotid. The carotid is at the side of the neck - not the front. If you cut a throat basically you impair breathing. Cut a throat round towards the back of the neck and you stop the breathing (and ability to call for help) and cause massive blood loss to the brain very quickly.

[Monty]

Well having reviewed the evidence I feel she was drunk and incapable at the time she was arrested. I suspect that she would not have been released unless she couldnt walk straight. That would have been clearly seen from the walk from the cells to the front desk, and the brief converation that ensued there.

Eddowes was deemed sober enough to be released.

Hutt engaged her is conversation and his testimony indicates she was aware of the situation, her presonses were lucid.

And yes Trevor, nit picking. As opposed to making unfounded sweeping statements.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

I don't know if it was the case in 1888 - I suspect not - but, in the modern era, the expectation would be that someone who was D & I would be taken to a hospital rather than a police station.

No not the case unless plainly obvious they were ill or injured in some way

Again, I don't know what the practise was then but, in the post PACE era a drunk must be roused and spoken to at least every 30 minutes and also required to perform a simple task.

I have alreday covered that in previous post

I didn't actually say that but I concede that, to a certain extent, it is true. What I don't accept is that a woman who was drunk and incapable at 8.45pm was sober at 1am the following morning. She may have been able to walk out of the police station, but sober? Not a chance. Either she wasn't sober when she was released, or she wasn't really that drunk when she was arrested.

Regards, Bridewell.

Well having reviewed the evidence I feel she was drunk and incapable at the time she was arrested. I suspect that she would not have been released unless she couldnt walk straight. That would have been clearly seen from the walk from the cells to the front desk, and the brief converation that ensued there.

[lynn cates]

money

Hello Neil.

"Bearing in mind she had enough money to end up drunk against a shop front."

Or, perhaps, had access to such monies?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

As to how drunk she really was is open to how drunk the arresting officer perceived her to be i think the offence was "drunk and incapable" obvioulsy after arrest and being taken to the station the Staiton Sgt would have to be satisified that given the circumstances the arrest was lawful.

I don't know if it was the case in 1888 - I suspect not - but, in the modern era, the expectation would be that someone who was D & I would be taken to a hospital rather than a police station.

Drunks like all prisoners are supposed to be checked at least every hour in some case half hour checks. In the case of drunks in the first few hours if they are sleeping they will be checked and left to sleep until they usually wake up themselves. Edowes would have probably been tired as well as drunk which would have added to sleep time etc.

Again, I don't know what the practise was then but, in the post PACE era a drunk must be roused and spoken to at least every 30 minutes and also required to perform a simple task.

As you say some drunks sober up quicker than others

I didn't actually say that but I concede that, to a certain extent, it is true. What I don't accept is that a woman who was drunk and incapable at 8.45pm was sober at 1am the following morning. She may have been able to walk out of the police station, but sober? Not a chance. Either she wasn't sober when she was released, or she wasn't really that drunk when she was arrested.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

hack job

Hello Cris. I think you have well described a quasi surgical attempt by an incompetent. I agree.

Well done.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

And I've seen videos.

What kind of videos? Snuff? Slaughtering animals? (Which I hope not.) If it's just horror Tom, they're not realistic.

The only slight problem with that is that the carotid artery is a) one of the largest blood vessels and b) is under high pressure. If you cut a carotid it spurts. {...} but depending on the swiftness of the cut it's possible that the blood could be 'wiped' as it passes through adjacent flesh.

I'd be interested to hear what Hunter would say to this, since he's got some experience with, well, venison.

Only experience I got on this is deeply hacked fingers through a knife or through my ice skates blades (which I keep SUPER sharp) and yep, it takes a couple seconds until the blood begins to pour out, and def no blood on the knife and especially no blood on the blades. But cut your hand while opening a can, and the blood ends up on the can as well.
I think the thing to retain from this is that cutting a throat swiftly from behind will leave less blood (and body fluids) on a knife than trying to extract organs without really knowing what you're doing. (Duh.)

[caz]

If he brought something with him for wiping etc, and used it after Stride, why could he not have used it again after Eddowes? If he discarded it en route to the City because it was too saturated with blood, wouldn't it have been found? Or if he kept it on him, but the apron proved a better bet, why not discard both of them together?

I think he brought something separate with him for lining his pockets or wrapping the body parts, while the apron piece proved useful to wipe his soiled hands and knife before leaving it where it would cast suspicion on the occupants of a building large enough to keep the cops occupied while he got his head down for a few hours or got right out of the area. If he knew the residents were mainly Jewish, and the location was also picked for this reason, the message may have been written by him to keep the focus firmly on Jews and blame.

Love,

Caz
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