The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[etenguy]

The proposed route, is in blue.



That seems an extra ordinary long journey for someone just wiping his hands.




On your point 2., I doubt he still carried the organs when he reached Goulston Street, he likely had already dropped them off somewhere. Then returned to discard the apron for some reason.

Sam Flynn suggests the distance is a six minute walk or so, quicker if running, I guess it partly depends on whether he was running - though a running man might attract attention. It took me about ten minutes to do that walk, but I was strolling and maybe didn't take the most direct route.

I wish we had more detail about the amount of faeces on the apron. The greater the amount, the greater the evidence he used it to clean up. The evidence we have concentrates on the blood, 'as if a knife had been wiped' and doesn't mention the faeces amount or pattern. This leads me to infer the amount of faeces was small - which if true, undermines the need to take the apron piece to clean up.

I think it unlikely he would take the organs only to discard them a few metres away - so I assume you mean he either hid them to collect them later, or took them home before coming back out to discard the rag. The latter seems unusual behaviour in the context of a police presence - unless it was to leave an authenticated message. Certainly the timings support a gap between the murder and discarding the rag - but maybe PC Long did just miss it earlier.

[etenguy]

What a ridiculous suggestion

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It is not ridiculous, Trevor, but perhaps needs more context to better understand the potential events of that night.

It is quite possible, and plausible, that he was so hyped up after two murders and going to town on Eddowes, and angered by being disturbed during the murder of Stride, that once home he worked himself up to the point where he needed to go and leave a message, authenticated by the rag. I don't state that this is what happened nor do I state that this is the most likely scenario - but it is possible, plausible and certainly not ridiculous.

[Trevor Marriott]

It's a three or four minute trot. And it's not so much a matter of his wiping his hands as he went, but that he needed somewhere safe where he COULD wipe his hands. The Goulston Street doorway was an ideal place to do so. Far enough away from the action, but not so far away that he'd risk being out on the streets for long.

At that time of the morning he could have stopped and wiped his hands anywhere, and discard the apron piece anywhere. As to ideal places they would have been in abundance long before he ever got to GS.

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[Sam Flynn]

I wish we had more detail about the amount of faeces on the apron. The greater the amount, the greater the evidence he used it to clean up. The evidence we have concentrates on the blood, 'as if a knife had been wiped' and doesn't mention the faeces amount or pattern. This leads me to infer the amount of faeces was small - which if true, undermines the need to take the apron piece to clean up.

I wish we had more detail about the apron as well. However, we do have a lot of detail about the state of Eddowes' corpse, specifically that the extruded bowels were smeared over with fæcal matter - smeared being the operative word. Stuff doesn't get smeared unless something does the smearing, and what else could have been the "smearing agent" but one or more of the killer's hands? I'd suggest that the killer, having dirtied his hand(s) when he excised the colon, tried to wipe off as much as he could on the glutinous surface of the extruded bowels, but - having only partially succeeded in doing so - decided that he'd need more time, and a better method, for removing the contamination. Hence, he cut off a piece of cloth and sought somewhere comparatively secluded nearby to scrub up more thoroughly before venturing further.

[Trevor Marriott]

It is not ridiculous, Trevor, but perhaps needs more context to better understand the potential events of that night.

It is quite possible, and plausible, that he was so hyped up after two murders and going to town on Eddowes, and angered by being disturbed during the murder of Stride, that once home he worked himself up to the point where he needed to go and leave a message, authenticated by the rag. I don't state that this is what happened nor do I state that this is the most likely scenario - but it is possible, plausible and certainly not ridiculous.

But your theory falls apart if he didn't kill Stride, and there are many including myself who don't believe he did kill her.

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[Trevor Marriott]

I wish we had more detail about the apron as well. However, we do have a lot of detail about the state of Eddowes' corpse, specifically that the extruded bowels were smeared over with fæcal matter - smeared being the operative word. Stuff doesn't get smeared unless something does the smearing, and what else could have been the "smearing agent" but one or more of the killer's hands?

Smeared is simply another term given by the doctor. I see no valid reason for the killer to carry out that act with all that was going on around him. Again all of these little issues add to the time the killer would have been with the body.

If you damage the bowels with a long bladed knife, then faecal matter will be discharged in any event will it not?

I note that you poo poohed (no pun intended) the previous comment made by the doctor when he states the kidney was carefully removed, yet you rely on his term smeared to prop up your theory.

Is that not cherry picking ?

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[Sam Flynn]

I note that you poo poohed (no pun intended) the previous comment made by the doctor when he states the kidney was carefully removed

I'm not in the least pooh-pooing the idea that the kidney was carefully removed, and I've no doubt that it was. The point I was making is that the body had sustained a lot of damage BEFORE the kidney could be carefully removed.

"Carefully removed" does not mean "carefully accessed". I'm sure that you or I could "carefully remove" a kidney if the path had first been cleared by cutting the spleen, pancreas, peritoneum and descending colon.

yet you rely on his term smeared to prop up your theory

I've no doubt that when he said "smeared", he meant "smeared". He's reporting a simple fact. The point about the "carefully removed" kidney is that it was an opinion; not that I'm pooh-pooing his opinion on this matter either (see above).

[Elamarna]

H

Whatever was used as a mortuary is irrelevant.The fact is, it was used as a mortuary, it wasn't just opened as a mortuary just to accommodate Chapmans body.

So yes there would have been medical staff coming and going.

The officer was there to stop the press and public from gaining access

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However in the case of Nichols it was opened for her it was locked until Mann arrived and was locked when no one was in attendance. Can you show evidence that this was not the case in the later murders?

I raised this in Post 1971 I see you have not yet responded



Steve

[etenguy]

But your theory falls apart if he didn't kill Stride, and there are many including myself who don't believe he did kill her.

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It is not really my theory, just one possible scenario that might have taken place.

There are others that do not rely on him having killed Stride. Catherine Eddowes was the most mutilated of his victims to that point. He even took trophies. He may have been buzzing, high on his work. Maybe, he wanted to prolong that feeling. An authenticated message that would have the police scurrying around and trying to interpret what he meant, might just do the trick. Again, I don't state that this is what happened nor do I state that this is the most likely scenario - but it is possible, plausible and not ridiculous.

[Elamarna]

Trevor

We have no idea as to how they became detached, what you suggest is pure speculation, as it was from Dr Brown who stated they were placed there by design.

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They are either cut or torn, there are no other alternatives.

So if cut, that must be after the abdomen is opened so no spill out there.

If torn much the same applies.

Once again Trevor basic anatomy gets in the way of a theory.

Still waiting for the details of that photo offered as evidence by the way. Post 1989


Steve

[curious]

You're missing the point. An apron piece was not "put before them" at the inquest. The match had previously been made. Just how many shitty, bloody pieces of apron can we believe were floating around Whitechapel within an hour of a shitty, bloody murder?

Wasn't there testimony that the apron had been patched? If so, it was no longer just a piece of white material, but had something distinctive on it.

curious

[curious]

Almost every woman wore a white apron back then !

I will ask a question which applies to all on this thread "Can you remember what colour shirt you were wearing 6 days ago?

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But Eddowes' apron had been patched -- perhaps with white material, but not necessarily. The patching would have made it distinctive.

Yes, if I knew I would have to give testimony about it.

curious

[Pierre]

It may simply have been discarded, but if so why did he cut the apron, take away a piece and discard it there?

Goulston street is a fair distance from Mitre Square, so he'd be carrying it for a while. I assume he had a reason to take the apron portion in the first place. There are three (and perhaps more) plausible reasons
1. to clean up - but he'd never done that before
2. to carry away the organs - but why then choose a different carrying method at Goulston street?
3. to authenticate a message - possibly but requires a belief that the link between the graffito and apron would be made - as indeed it was - but the juxtaposition would need to be carefully organised.

I agree leaving the apron segment next to a wall written message is convoluted and the message may have been missed, but the alternatives also raise questions which are difficult to understand.

But it is a well established historical fact that the GSG was not missed.

Pierre

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Wickerman;430255]The proposed route, is in blue.

That seems an extra ordinary long journey for someone just wiping his hands.

[Pierre]

It is not ridiculous, Trevor, but perhaps needs more context to better understand the potential events of that night.

It is quite possible, and plausible, that he was so hyped up after two murders and going to town on Eddowes, and angered by being disturbed during the murder of Stride, that once home he worked himself up to the point where he needed to go and leave a message, authenticated by the rag. I don't state that this is what happened nor do I state that this is the most likely scenario - but it is possible, plausible and certainly not ridiculous.

The murder of Stride failed and therefore the message was necessary.