The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[perrymason]

Hi

That word convenient says it all though... thats the fact, its TOO convenient, so the apron and graffito are inextricably linked...

Hi Sarah,

Linked, yes.....certainly the same hand leaving each element? Nope.

Monty and I have discussed this issue before, and to his credit I havent been able to construct a viable waterproof reason, or seen one, why they should be considered as both having been left by the man who took Kates apron section. I do not believe Liz Stride was killed by Jack, so for me, the message could well be a disclaimer for that murder in my opinion....and as was said earlier. I believe Monty feels otherwise, and so sees no reason for any disclaimer.....and I have yet to punch a hole in that position definitively...regardless how clear the issue seems to me personally.

That message could not have caused the riot that was suggested by Warren and others, no-one even today knows if it supports Jews or accuses Jews of anything. Its ambiguous....so the rationale for erasing it to me seems like fear, not prudent policework.

I believe the only possible reason they could have done what they did was based on their thinking that the 2 items were connected to the man who left the apron....a definite killer, Jack or not.....and associating Jews in some way with killings is what they feared would occur, even in an ambiguous way....when Jews came down the stairs from the Model Homes the next morning and see a crime scene. The only inflammatory aspect of that message for a Jew is its potential connection to at least Kates murderer.

I think they knew or felt strongly that they were erasing Kates killers handwriting...thats why an ambiguous message seemed potentially dangerous.

Best regards Sarah.

[perrymason]

Just to add.....there is at least one street policeman that was at both Mitre Square and later Goulston Street. One of the two Constables that saw nothing in that doorway as he went by.....but something was later found right there.

All the best.

[Sam Flynn]

The GSG was not proven to be or even strongly suggested to be something that they believed preceded the apron section, or they would have said that.

Would they, Mike? Would they even have been asked?

They both were found at the same time, and neither was seen before they both were found.

Unfortunately, we don't know that - and, at this remove in time, we'll never know.

[Sam Flynn]

Just to add.....there is at least one street policeman that was at both Mitre Square and later Goulston Street. One of the two Constables that saw nothing in that doorway as he went by.....but something was later found right there.

Yes - the apron. The writing was only seen by PC Long after he'd found the apron and had started casting about the doorway for clues.

[perrymason]

Hi Sam,

On the first response to me that you posted, I think the answer is yes, they would have and did wonder when the writing was placed at that spot after finding the apron. Thats evidenced by the differing opinions on that very question. And as to the second point, we do in fact know that they were found at the same time, and that neither the writing or the apron was found before they both were. Leaving the door wide open for them to have been left there at the same time.

On the second post, my comment was actually meant to address the possibility, however small, that the apron could have been placed there by someone who had been at the Mitre Street crime scene before Goulston Street and was not Kates killer.

All the best Gareth

[Jon Guy]

my comment was actually meant to address the possibility, however small, that the apron could have been placed there by someone who had been at the Mitre Street crime scene before Goulston Street and was not Kates killer.

The City Police? So they can pursue their man into Met territory?

[perrymason]

The City Police? So they can pursue their man into Met territory?

Hi Jon,

I have no theory to push forward, just saying that we all assume that the man who left the apron was in fact the man that killed Kate,.... a sound deduction, however, technically, a copper could have taken it from Mitre and put it where its found. Not as probable a scenario, .....but if you believe that the Mitre Square murder doesnt raise many questions about the City Police that night then we arent reading the same articles.

Kate was possibly a police informant....and she is released from City police custody and immediately heads away from her normal home and boyfriend at 1am, instead she goes into the City... and 45 minutes later she is found dead by a City policeman, after another City policeman had looked into the square likely while the murder was going on minutes earlier and saw "nothing", with a City policeman's window facing the crime scene, with 2 retired policemen within earshot, and with 3 detectives searching an alley nearby....

Add to that Phillips thought she was not a Ripper victim.

Best regards Jon.

[Sam Flynn]

On the first response to me that you posted, I think the answer is yes, they would have and did wonder when the writing was placed at that spot after finding the apron.

Whether they'd have done anything about it, though, is a moot point. The immigrant residents might not have wanted to "make a fuss", and the Met Police seemed more concerned with getting rid of the offending writing.

[Sam Flynn]

Kate was possibly a police informant.

There's no evidence that suggests she could have remotely been anything of the sort, Mike. She was a pissed old wreck - that much is evident from her biography, her recent history, and the tat she wore.

and she is released from City police custody and immediately heads away from her normal home and boyfriend at 1am

Firstly, she had no "normal home". Secondly, she and her boyfriend had occupied different beds the previous night, owing to their desperate poverty. Thirdly, the route she took from Bishopsgate Police Station seems perfectly reasonable - especially if one considers that, by sticking close to the tall buildings there, she'd have been able to shelter from the winds and rain.

with a City policeman's window facing the crime scene, with 2 retired policemen within earshot, and with 3 detectives searching an alley nearby.

That's the same kind of "da-da-daaaah!" thinking that reads significance into a the discovery of a bit of antisemitic graffiti in a district renowned for its high concentration of Jews.

... which brings us neatly back to the subject of this thread

[Monty]

The City Police? So they can pursue their man into Met territory?

Jon,

If they suspected a crime had taken or was about to take place then yes, they can move into Met territory.

Photographic evidence shows that City police had a presence at the Sidney street siege, which was on Met ground.

Monty

[Nurse Sarah]

To Perrymason!

Hi Michael

I think you may have misunderstood my original message, I dont believe the GSG was written by JTR...what I was saying was unfortunately people think it was written by him because Kate's apron was right next to it, therefore they 'must be linked'...I dont think they were!

[perrymason]

1. Firstly, she had no "normal home".

2. Secondly, she and her boyfriend had occupied different beds the previous night, owing to their desperate poverty.

3. Thirdly, the route she took from Bishopsgate Police Station seems perfectly reasonable - especially if one considers that, by sticking close to the tall buildings there, she'd have been able to shelter from the winds and rain.

4. That's the same kind of "da-da-daaaah!" thinking that reads significance into a the discovery of a bit of antisemitic graffiti in a district renowned for its high concentration of Jews.

... which brings us neatly back to the subject of this thread

Hi Sam,

Little confrontational in tone, but my responses would be;

1. There is of course no "home", but the story by John Kelly that they usually spent every night together when in town, ....(they had just returned from hopping and had not re-established their patterns of life), in the same lodging house for the most part. Which was not located in The City of London.

2. Again, this seems to be related to money, and their recent return.

3.It seems perfectly reasonable if you imagine she wanted to remain dry while taking a stroll in the City immediately upon her release.

4. The message is not known to have an anti-semetic meaning at all.

It remains the truth that both items were discovered by the same person at the same time, and at least 2 people had passed that very spot within the hour before it was found and reported that nothing was (edit: seen) there.

All the best Sam

[perrymason]

Hi Michael

I think you may have misunderstood my original message, I dont believe the GSG was written by JTR...what I was saying was unfortunately people think it was written by him because Kate's apron was right next to it, therefore they 'must be linked'...I dont think they were!

I dont think I misunderstood you Sarah, perhaps my reply post was misleading....I sometimes write as I speak, and you dont have the added body language to use.

I do think that both are by the man who left the apron piece myself.

My best regards NS

[MustKnow]

The eternal questions

One of the eternal questions that will never offer any proof (I so wish Scotland Yard had done a better job and we could have settled the matter).

I say "no", but "yes", meaning I have no idea.

Weighing everything I'd say "likely" he did, but why? What's the point of writing something like that when all you want is kill and mutilate? Just weird.

[Nurse Sarah]

Hi Michael

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, especially in this crazy world!

I am not against anyone who believes the GSG was written by JTR, I personally feel that it wasnt...

May one of you go forth and seek the truth in this matter and put us all right!