The GSG - Did Jack write it? POLL

[lynn cates]

Lipski

Hello Jon.

"Can I ask, how do you interpret Swanson's later view, of the 19th, which suggests that Schwartz was believed?"

Clearly, Swanson--and the HO--believed his story. Else, they would not have spent considerable time fretting over "Lipski."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Baxter

Hello John.

"I believe that Stride's murder was extremely audacious in its execution, which for me provides a significant link to the other C5 murders, and suggests a far more cunning murderer than a drunken fool like BS man."

This was PRECISELY Baxter's reasoning.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

forensics

Hello Jon.

"I wonder if it was not possible that he stepped back into the shadows while the altercation took place, not wishing to be seen."

Indeed. But shall we pursue the forensics from that point?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

carpeted offices

Hello Batman.

"The home office memos contain a whole series of Schwartz-Lipski related investigations.

That's how seriously they took Schwartz."

I agree. Not unlike the chaps in the carpeted offices in a couple or three of my jobs. The "higher ups" are TOTALLY out of the loop with respect to those of us who actually DO something.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

scenario

Hello John.

"However, it's possible that Brown's suspect, who was tailing Stride, simply followed her into the Yard and killed her. In this scenario Stride was eating the cachous, sometimes used as a breath sweetener, prior to her assignation with, say, Lave."

Of course, it would require her to stop and turn around. Even better if her slayer were unseen and allowed her to go east of him. If she turned and saw him full on . . .

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

recon

Hello Jon. I like your reconstruction. However:

"- The 'suspect' steps forward to help Stride to her feet - this is when he kills her."

This requires her to be getting her cachous in hand whilst he is west of her and helping her up.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

questions

Hello Jason.

"Schwartz might have made the whole thing up maybe to try and get some money from a newspaper."

1. Why go to the police first?

2. Did he get money?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Jon.

"The killer can now strike with impunity, no-one knows he is there, and everyone will know what the man who assaulted her looked like."

Are you suggesting this was part of his plan?

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Blackwell: The left hand, lying on the ground, was partially closed, and contained a small packet of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

Phillips: The left arm was extended from elbow, and a packet of cachous was in the hand. Similar ones were in the gutter. I took them from the hand and gave them to Dr. Blackwell.

[Coroner] Does the presence of the cachous in the left hand indicate that the murder was committed very suddenly and without any struggle? - Some of the cachous were scattered about the yard.
The Foreman: Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted? - That is an inference which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw.

Blackwell [recalled]: (who assisted in making the post-mortem examination) said: I may add that I removed the cachous from the left hand of the deceased, which was nearly open. The packet was lodged between the thumb and the first finger, and was partially hidden from view. It was I who spilt them in removing them from the hand. My impression is that the hand gradually relaxed while the woman was dying, she dying in a fainting condition from the loss of blood.

End of story. The person who removed the cachous from her hand has said how they appeared to him... as if the hand gradually relaxed while she died, i.e - she was holding tightly to them and the blood loss meant her hand could no longer maintain the full grip.

No mystery.

Hello Batman,

Yes, that clearly reinforces the point I've been making, and that Lynn's been making. It is self evident that Stride "would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether had she been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted", something you've previously argued against! And, of course, the cachous would have spilled, but the only evidence of spillage is when Dr Blackwell removed the packet from her hand. Of course, it seriously undermines Schwartz's evidence, which implies that she was "thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted".

She could have taken the packet out after being assaulted by BS man but surely she would have to be in a fairly relaxed state to do that, which she wouldn't be after being spun round and thrown to the ground by BS man. And why would she then agree to go with this man, the same man who just assaulted her, into a narrow pitch-black passage ? Considering JtR was active during this period she would have to be mad!

Anyway, nice to see that you're coming round to my, and Lynn's, way of thinking on this issue.

[lynn cates]

bang!

Hello Batman. From your quote:

"The Foreman: Do you not think that the woman would have dropped the packet of cachous altogether if she had been thrown to the ground before the injuries were inflicted? - That is an inference which the jury would be perfectly entitled to draw."

Is it not painful to shoot yourself in the foot?

As for her hand relaxing, of course it did--AFTER she died.

No mystery.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

bang on!

Hello John. Hmm, our posts crossed (but not Lechmered--heh-heh).

Bang on!

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hello John.

"However, it's possible that Brown's suspect, who was tailing Stride, simply followed her into the Yard and killed her. In this scenario Stride was eating the cachous, sometimes used as a breath sweetener, prior to her assignation with, say, Lave."

Of course, it would require her to stop and turn around. Even better if her slayer were unseen and allowed her to go east of him. If she turned and saw him full on . . .

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Yes, I think in this scenario- where Liz goes to the side door, having just missed the person she was going to meet at the gate- she hears someone entering the passage. However, she can't make out who it is because it's so dark in there, but assumes it's probably the person she's just missed. Perhaps she whispers, "is that you Joseph?", but gets no response; the killer calmly stops and holds his position, concerned that if he keeps advancing Stride might panic and cry out.

However, when she gets no response, she becomes sufficiently concerned to walk briskly towards the exit, possibly at an angle to avoid the spot where she senses the man to be positioned. Because of the pitch black darkness the killer can't quite make out their relative positions but, as he feels her brush past him, he quickly reaches out, catches hold of her scarf, and cuts her throat whilst pulling her to the ground.

Please feel free to highlight any flaws, I'd appreciate the feedback!

[Batman]

Since you now agree her hand relaxing is the forensic explanation you can only fall back on your mystery of how people can hold onto something during an assault and still retain it in death.

If doesn't matter if you can't comprehend how this is possible if countless examples have been given. See DaneF again. There are plenty of things we don't comprehend but accept because they have examples.

[Jon Guy]

Hello Lynn,

Yes, I think in this scenario- where Liz goes to the side door, having just missed the person she was going to meet at the gate- she hears someone entering the passage. However, she can't make out who it is because it's so dark in there, but assumes it's probably the person she's just missed. Perhaps she whispers, "is that you Joseph?", but gets no response; the killer calmly stops and holds his position, concerned that if he keeps advancing Stride might panic and cry out.

However, when she gets no response, she becomes sufficiently concerned to walk briskly towards the exit, possibly at an angle to avoid the spot where she senses the man to be positioned. Because of the pitch black darkness the killer can't quite make out their relative positions but, as he feels her brush past him, he quickly reaches out, catches hold of her scarf, and cuts her throat whilst pulling her to the ground.

Please feel free to highlight any flaws, I'd appreciate the feedback!

Hi John

I`m not sure how you can discount a witness testimony and then create the above scenario - even Schwartz didn`t have such a detailed account and he was there :-)

[Wyatt Earp]

She could have taken the packet out after being assaulted by BS man but surely she would have to be in a fairly relaxed state to do that, which she wouldn't be after being spun round and thrown to the ground by BS man. And why would she then agree to go with this man, the same man who just assaulted her, into a narrow pitch-black passage ? Considering JtR was active during this period she would have to be mad!

John, if BSM was Stride’s killer—note my use of the word “if”—then I would agree that he seems to have gained her acquiescence following the initial dust-up observed by Schwartz, as she seems to have gone willingly into the yard with him. I don’t think it’s correct to assume there was no way she would have gone willingly into the yard with him. I’m going to make a wild guess that Stride had been around customers with bad manners before, and the description that she did not scream very loudly is evidence that she did not view this as a life-threatening situation.

So how do people gain the cooperation of uncooperative people? There are two tried and tested methods, the carrot and the stick.

The carrot—perhaps he offered her the cachous. Perhaps he gave her a very handsome payment. Perhaps both.

The stick—perhaps he threatened her with additional violence if she didn’t go into the yard with him.

Stride could have decided that she just wanted to get this idiot out of her hair.