September 17th Letter

[jmenges]

As early as 10 September the organizations were being referred to some in press accounts as Vigilance and Patrol Committees, which signifies something other than just reward offering.

For what that's worth...

JM

[Cap'n Jack]

That distinct whiff can only be Joe's old cods wallop, Sam.
As I said the writer appears to be confirming that he is a lot closer to Lusk and Co than Lusk and Co imagine.
To be under someone's nose is just about as close as you can get to another person.
Nobody is hunting anyone down in this letter, but rather a mere child playing hide and seek with what he views as fairly witless adults.
Catch me if you can.
You know the game, Sam. One boy must cover his eyes and count to a hundred, guarding an empty can, whilst the other boys hide away. After a hundred he seeks them out but if they can kick the can without being touched by him they have won.
Catch me if you can.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Jon.

It's worth considering that Vigilance Committees weren't unique to the Ripper case - I'm pretty sure that such organisations had sprung up previously in Britain and the USA. They were generally constituted as prototype "Neighbourhood Watch" schemes, I believe - merely to "be around" and keep an eye on the streets, rather than as "detectives" per se.

In this sense, they were more scarecrows than sleuths, and anyone around at the time would have known that.

[CitizenX]

Jon,

The Toynbee vigilence and patrol committee were patrolling the streets before the murder of Polly Nichols ...... and before that darn pest Lusk came on the scene..

Kevin

[Natalie Severn]

Jon,

The Toynbee vigilence and patrol committee were patrolling the streets before the murder of Polly Nichols ...... and before that darn pest Lusk came on the scene..

Kevin

The St Jude"s/ Toynbee Hall vigilance ctte was set up ,as someone above correctly states,as a result of the murder of Martha Tabram .George Yard was next door to Toynbee Hall and it partly was as a result of a murder on their door step that the vigilante Ctte was formed.

When the "tall man dressed in clerical costume" went into the shop where the reward bill was posted in its window,he asked Emily Marsh, "... for the address of Mr Lusk,MENTIONED IN THE BILL, as president of the committee".
Lusk"s name was on the reward bills.

Norma

[John Bennett]

George Yard was next door to Toynbee Hall and it partly was as a result of a murder on their door step that the vigilante Ctte was formed.

Indeed, Norma. In fact, George Yard Buildings eventually became PART of Toynbee Hall (as Charles Booth House), it was that close.

[Natalie Severn]

Indeed, Norma. In fact, George Yard Buildings eventually became PART of Toynbee Hall (as Charles Booth House), it was that close.

Wow! I never realised they were THAT close! No wonder Rev Barnett was suspected of being the ripper!I wonder if the "tall chap wearing the clerical clothes", asking Emily Marsh for Mr Lusk"s address was Rev Barnett then? It could have been a perfectly innocent request ----maybe he wanted the two vigilante committees to merge?
Thanks for that bit of info John,
Cheers
Norma

[John Bennett]

Wow! I never realised they were THAT close!

Not half. George Yard Buildings became Toynbee Hall lodgings for the students who came from universities outside London to take part in philanthropic work in the area.

They even built a dining hall round the back.

I think it's mentioned in Fishman's East End 1888.

JB

[Cap'n Jack]

para ti, Sam, para me, uno poca de gracia, from 'Our Darlings', London, January 1888, catch me when you can:

[Natalie Severn]

AP,
You dont think he got the original idea about destroyed "noses" from these verses do you? A recurring theme seems to be " noses" Jack"s right "under their noses" --- Kate has half her nose cut off-----he bites his mother"s nose in Broadmoor.......and now another Jack---this time Jack Frost, will come and bite your nose off----!


John,
I think a few of the Toynbee "residents" may have been slightly bonkers and Barnett certainly seems to have been a pain in the neck.

[Sam Flynn]

para ti, Sam, para me, uno poca de gracia, from 'Our Darlings', London, January 1888, catch me when you can:

Thanks, AP.

Was this the first time on record that "Catch me if you can" was used? Well, I'll be blowed...

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The Star, Wednesday 3rd October 1888—

"The services of 'noses' - that is to say, people who are hand in glove with persons of indifferent character, are frequently called into play, and they are deputed to go to the low lodging-houses and other places that are the resort of low characters, and keep their eyes and ears open for anything likely to give a clue to the individual or individuals wanted. Women often act as 'noses'."

Regards,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

Simon,
I wonder if you are onto something here.I have long thought that the upside down "v"s on Kate"s face were pointing to her eyes,as if to say,look,she was a "watch" or as you have put it above a "nose".And both Kate"s eyes and nose were attacked. Could Kate have been one of those women then,who worked for Jenkinson? Was she watching out for information passing around in pubs?
That was the district where the Fenians held out around Mitre Square.A couple of years earlier two of them had been arrested and their dynamite store was found in a chest in their lodgings in Mitre Square.
Interesting thought.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Norma,

There is a woman whose name I dare not mention for fear of mass tantrums who has a website showing "documentary proof" of Eddowes and John Kelly's involvement with Edward Jenkinson.

Regards,

Simon

[caz]

Thanks, AP.

Was this the first time on record that "Catch me if you can" was used? Well, I'll be blowed...

Hi Sam,

I thought AP was making the point that his example featured the name Jack, like the Sept 17th letter (albeit that the child was daring Jack Frost - Jack the Nipper? - to catch him in the former, while Jack the Ripper was daring Lusk to catch him in the latter.

While that may not mean a lot, it might affect the argument that the author of this letter was trying - and failing miserably - to inject some credibility by combining two major elements from Dear Boss and From Hell: the name 'Jack the Ripper' and the catchphrase (literally) 'Catch me when you can'.

In short, AP's earlier association between the catchphrase and the name Jack could, at least in theory, have inspired any or all of the three missives in question.

It's written with hindsight because the writer knows that Lusk will become part of ripper fokelore...it's the only reason he's mentioned in the letter, to give the letter some crediability...

Hi Kevin,

Hmmm. It's always a tricky one, to argue that a writer only mentions something (or someone in this case) to give the content some credibility, if you are then going to claim that it's this very mention that strips it of all credibility and shows it must have been written with hindsight.

If there was one poster up in the Whitechapel Murderer's killing zone before Sept 17th, which included Lusk's name among the 'undersigned', then whoever wrote that letter did just fine, whether they knew this to be the case or took a lucky stab in the dark.

In any case, if the good people at Punch were already thinking, by Sept 22nd, in terms of the Whitechapel Murderer playing a game of Blind Man's Buff with a blindfolded copper, before they knew that joker Jack would soon be asking: 'How can they catch me now', or that in due course the author of From Hell would similarly be teasing Lusk, then the whole concept of 'I'm right under your nose, yet you still can't catch me' was already established and gathering its own momentum in the aftermath of Annie's murder, without any help from the first of the letter writers, and indeed before the public could guess there would be any.

Would the killer not have been as pleased as Punch with such developments, especially if, as Dan Norder argued recently (and as I have long suspected), he appears to have been keeping an eye on his own publicity and gaining inspiration from it?

In case anyone didn't already know, Blind Man's Buff is a game in which one player is blindfolded and has to try and touch the others, who are all hiding in plain sight and trying to avoid being touched, while teasing him to make him change direction.

Love,

Caz
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