September 17th Letter

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks Caz
as ever you blow in like a fresh breeze, and fill me old sail.
Looking in detail at press sources from 1888 I should say that the expression 'catch me if you can' was so common that I'm honestly mystified that it doesn't turn up in even more letters from Jack.
And you are quite right, the article I posted from 1888 does really negate the tired old argument that the 17th September must be a modern fake because it uses that very expression.
I don't believe that argument holds water now.
The article also seems to sum up, in pathos, the childish nature of the Whitechapel Murders, and the loneliness of a small and fatherless boy lost in the Late Victorian Period... sort of.

[caz]

It's actually quite interesting that the notices published on Sept 11th were accusing the police of not being up to the task of discovering the author or authors of the late atrocities and therefore the ‘undersigned’ were taking their own steps to bring the murderer or murderers to justice.

So in fact the mocking Sept 17th letter, claiming that Lusk has no chance of ever catching him, fits in quite well, sandwiched as it is right between the local tradesmen’s bold declaration and the Sept 22nd Punch cartoon, which echoes their opinion that the cops have been flailing around in the dark.

Within a few days of Punch mocking the police for their failure, the author of Dear Boss is picking up this refrain and running with it.

Love,

Caz
X

[Natalie Severn]

If Tom Cutbush was Jack ,Ap ,then I cant really see the vain narcissist, ---the Thomas Cutbush that is of 1888,--- who seems to have been singularly lacking in humour ,preferring the Bible and medical books on intrusive abdominal "surgery" to magazines like Punch, being so uncool as to busy himself writing funny little ditties poking fun at Lusk and his vigilante committee or on other occasions,playing peek -a -boo and tweaking the moustaches of news agency editors and their underlings.

Quite right Caz,and whoever wrote those letters fancied himself as more than a bit of a card!

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,

There is a woman whose name I dare not mention for fear of mass tantrums who has a website showing "documentary proof" of Eddowes and John Kelly's involvement with Edward Jenkinson.

Regards,

Simon

In life there are only those who do and those who dont dare. Simon ,mon chou,........please tell me her name........ and I"ll send you a thousand kisses.........

[Simon Wood]

Cher Norma,

I knew I loved you.

I'll will despatch an email with the name and details [plus a lock of my hair, if I can find one] immediately.

Please take care not to disappoint your humble suitor in return.

Toujours,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

Dear Simon,

A thousand kisses and more!

Norma

[Simon Wood]

Cher Norma,

Toujours l'amour.

Simon

[Cap'n Jack]

'Catch me if you can'.
Sam, Caz, Natalie and Co. I'd be very interested in opinions about the use of this childish expression in the LVP, deriving as it does from a childish game of catch; but as we know from the useage in certain letters vaguely connected to the Whitechapel Murders it could have a far more sinister meaning.
Is it a threat or taunt? Or both?
Does it express an intention to do further harm?
Or is it merely a childish taunt, free from threat?

[Natalie Severn]

Its a difficult one.If Jack wrote the Lusk letter and the Openshaw letter,then it would appear he was into taunting,not just police but anyone involved in tracking him down.
The handwriting of the Lusk letter ,as has often been noted,with its "Catch me when you can" signature ending is similar to the Openshaw letter"s post script asking "O have you seen the devil with his microscope and scalpel a lookin at a the kidney with a slide cocked up".
Both letters could contain a hidden meaning.They are carefully composed--- the Openshaw one about the devil ,parodies an old Celtish folk tale--it has the same beat,almost the same number of words and a similar beginning and ending viz:
"Here"s to the devil with his wooden pick and shovel,digging tin by the bushel,with his tail cocked up".
And "Catch me when you can" ,as you pointed out Ap,is a phrase found both in folk tales and nursery rhymes.
And we have two references to "Hell" [ where he wants to be? ]ie the Lusk one which actually pretends to hail "From Hell" ---while the Openshaw letter reinforces a " salute" to Devil-who ,after all is believed to live in hell- in the opening line of the folk tale,"Here"s to the Devil".
Something dark and dangerous intended rather than just a joke about him eating a murdered woman"s kidney?

[Cap'n Jack]

Thanks Natalie
I have to say that I feel the term 'catch me if you can' is not at all unusual when it comes to murder or attempted murder, and letters claiming to come from the killer.
Here is an example that was sent to the New York press after the savage murder of a woman there in June of 1857:
'Dear Sir;
If you publish a description of the body of the murdered female in the pappers of Pittsburg, PA; you will be likely to find her friends but the murderer you cannot find.
By Somebody.
ps. - my revenge is sweet.
Catch me if you can.
New York.'
I'd say that was a clear taunt, but then I came across an earlier case from the 1830's where a man, John Cronie, savagely attacked PC Thomas Fuller with a knife for no good reason whatsoever, stabbing him numerous times about the body and then in the back when the constable collapsed.
As he pulled the knife out to begin his attack Cronie shouted out to Fuller: 'Catch me if you can!'
But instead of running away Cronie advanced on Fuller and began his attack.
So not a taunt at all here, but a clear threat... which was carried out with murderous intent.
And then of course we have the extraordinary case of June 1894, which I reproduce below, which does show that a killer, or potential killer, might well use the expression 'catch me if you can' in a letter.
Enjoy.

[Natalie Severn]

Ap,
All we can say with some certainty is that the phrase had become a kind of colloquialism among those with criminal intent, who believed they could avoid capture ,as well as children playing "catch" games.

[perrymason]

I dont know about that.....there is a distinct implied difference in the phrasing....."Catch me when you can", and "Catch me if you can"...the first suggests that the writer is being actively sought. As if the reader is searching for him at the time of the writing....and in this case, he was.

"Catch me if you can", as AP suggests, is a taunt, mocking the abilities of the hunter, and suggests the killer thinks he cannot be caught by the reader, where "Catch me when you can" might mean the writer is around and available and will get nicked, its just a matter of "when" they'll get him....and how many he'll kill by that time, is I believe, the taunt.

Best regards

[John Bennett]

I think the nub of all this (correct me if I'm wrong, somebody) is the contemporary - 1888 or before - usage of the phrase 'Catch me when/if you can' being somehow evidence that the 17th September letter was written when it claims it was.

I seem to remember a similar idea about the use of the word 'Yid' a while back.

[Natalie Severn]

I think the nub of all this (correct me if I'm wrong, somebody) is the contemporary - 1888 or before - usage of the phrase 'Catch me when/if you can' being somehow evidence that the 17th September letter was written when it claims it was.

I seem to remember a similar idea about the use of the word 'Yid' a while back.

But were"nt you in a different camp over the "Yid" idea John ?

[John Bennett]

But were"nt you in a different camp over the "Yid" idea John ?

Nope. Just because the phrases 'Catch me when you can' or 'Yid' were in the press, common usage (or whatever they were by 1888) does not prove that the 17th September letter was written on 17th September 1888.