September 17th Letter

[CitizenX]

On the surface this seems a very good point about Lusk, Kevin.However,he was the newly appointed chairman-by September 10th ctte. of that newly formed " W.Vigilante Society", and as such it was probable that his name adorned the hundreds-if not thousands of fly posters they put up around Whitechapel on trees and in shop windows etc to get people to join them.The fly posters were likely to have been circulated around the 11th or 12th September 1888 and probably acted like a red rag to a bull .
Best
Norma

WVC was not a mob as depicted in the movies. Initially it was a group of businessmen who joined together to petition the government to force them to offer a reward. It was only when they were rebuked that they expanded into offering their own reward and raising patrols. All this happened after the 20th September.....It was then posters were spread around Whitechapel the press reported nothing about them before this date (apart from the inital formation notice)...There isn't any record of bills being posted before the 21st Sept..

Anyway the letter makes hints that Lusk was out searching for the Ripper....and I don't think it was happening at the time Lusk was still waiting for their reply from the home office on the 17th.

Does anyone know the actual date when the WVC started the street patrols?

[Natalie Severn]

Well I know for certain that there was a Vigilante ctte that started up in mid August 1888 around the corner at St Jude"s.This was just after Martha Tabram had been found murdered [August 6th /7th] in George Yard which was immediately next door to their lodgings and St Jude"s Church at Toynbee Hall.In fact the Oxford and Cambridge students staying at Toynbee Hall as student/teachers comprised the "major" part of the Vigilante group but they encouraged the working men who they were providing courses for to join them in patrolling the streets,as well as any other men willing to help out.
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Chris,
I understand about the possibility that fake material has made its way into the archives and that the September 17th letter may also be fake.But all I have heard so far is the cry "Fake!" before anything has been proven and I find this scary too.Its as though its "proven" as fake because people say so and before any reliable " fair testing" on it has been carried out.
Best Norma

[Cap'n Jack]

'All this happened after the 20th September.....It was then posters were spread around Whitechapel the press reported nothing about them before this date (apart from the inital formation notice)...There isn't any record of bills being posted before the 21st Sept..'

Err, excuse me, but there are numerous press reports showing that the WVC distributed handbills and posters around Whitechapel on the 11th September 1888.

[CitizenX]

'All this happened after the 20th September.....It was then posters were spread around Whitechapel the press reported nothing about them before this date (apart from the inital formation notice)...There isn't any record of bills being posted before the 21st Sept..'

Err, excuse me, but there are numerous press reports showing that the WVC distributed handbills and posters around Whitechapel on the 11th September 1888.

There are not "numerous" press reports....search through them and you will see. You are correct that posters were displayed at some businesses in the area on 12th September 1888 but this received little press coverage.

The posters you refer to are described in detail in Sugden..

"IMPORTANT NOTICE - To the tradesman, Ratepayers, and Inhabitants Generally, of Whitechapel and District. Finding that in spite of murders being comitted in our midst, and that the murderer or murderers are still at large, we the undersigned have formed a Comimittee and intend to offer a substansial REWARD to anyone, Citizen, or otherwise, who shall give such information that will bring the murderer or murderers to justice. A committee of gentlemen has already been formed to carryout the above object, and will meet every evening at nine o'clock, at Mr J. Aarons, the Crown, 74 Mile End Road, corner of Jubilee Street and will be pleased to receive the assistance of the residents of the district"

There is no mention of street patrols only a REWARD and more importantly it was the secretarys name J.Aaron which was prominantly displayed on the posters...not Lusk.

Regardless........the letter specifically says that the writer is laughing at the attempts of Lusk (WVC) patrols to catch him.
I am disputing that the street patrols carried out by the WCV and Lusk were operating that early. I believe they started later in the month....after the letter had been written. It shows to me that the letter was probably written in hindsight.

Kevin

[Cap'n Jack]

'There isn't any record of bills being posted before the 21st Sept..'

Is what you claimed... even though you were aware that bills had been posted around Whitechapel on the 12th September.
We also know that Lusk's name appeared on the bill from evidence given to the police when a suspicious character sought Lusk's address from a shop assistant after reading the poster in the window.
You play charade with history.

[CitizenX]

I haven't seen the poster in question, have you? I am quoting from Philip Sugden.

All I can find regarding the story of the person asking for Lusks address is that a person asked a shop assistant displaying the reward poster for Lusks address. This was on the 15th October by which time Lusk had been named extensivly in the press, it doesnt automatically mean his name was even on the poster...you are just assuming this (unless you have seen the poster then i'm wrong).....

It's no good arguing about when bills were posted, that wasn't the point I was making.

The point I am making is.....

How can the writer make reference to Lusk and WVC patrolling the streets when there is no evidence to say they were doing so at that time? In fact the only evidence I can find of citizen patrolling the streets in early September is the Toynbee Hall Patrol Committee who started after Tabrams murder at the end of August. They did this because of the general lawlessness in the area...not specifically because of the murders.

Why didn't the letter writer poke fun at Hubert Llewellyn Smith and Thomas Hancock who were actually on the streets with the Toynbee Hall Patrol Committee" at that time?

Maybe because they were not part of ripper fokelore?

Kevin

[CitizenX]

Reference from Alias Jack the ripper By R. Micheal Gordon not sure where it came from originally though.

"In addition to requests for rewards and more police, the Mile End Vigilance committee began sending out its own patrols. From the ranks of the many unemployed, men were hired to patrol the East End from before midnight to four or five in the morning. Each morning, by 12.30 these paid patrols were supplemented by the committee members themselves. The committe also hired a private detective agenct, Grand & Batchelor, to supervise the patrols and advise the committee. The first patrols were in operation by midnight, October 3."

Kevin

[Cap'n Jack]

But the writer of the 17th September letter makes no reference whatsoever to 'patrols' or anything similar.
Instead he appears to be implying that Lusk might well know him from the immediate area.
I fear you easily misunderstand the term 'looking for', for Lusk was indeed 'looking for' the killer by offering a reward for his apprehension on the 11th September.
And Lusk was at the first meeting of the WVC. From a variety of press sources it appears he may have well been absent from the 2nd meeting of the WVC on the 15th September, by which time the first handbills and posters were already distributed.

[CitizenX]

I fear you easily misunderstand the term 'looking for', for Lusk was indeed 'looking for' the killer by offering a reward for his apprehension on the 11th September.

I doth think you generalise too much!!

Kevin

[Cap'n Jack]

And methinks you forsooth too much.
First off you claim that no handbills appeared before the 20th September... when historical record shows that such handbills were posted on the 11th September.
Then you claim that the 17th September letter must have been written with hindsight as it makes reference to street patrols which were not established until October... but the letter does not contain any reference to street patrols so you appear to be on a snow patrol.

[John Bennett]

Irrespective of my opinion on the 17th September letter, here is a quote from The Times, 12th September 1888 which appears to confirm AP's claims:

"A number of tradesmen in the neighbourhood in which the murder was committed have organized a vigilance committee, and yesterday morning the following notice was published: -" Finding that, in spite of murders being committed in our midst our police force is inadequate to discover the author or authors of the late atrocities, we the undersigned have formed ourselves into a committee and intend offering a substantial reward to any one, citizens or otherwise, who shall give such information as will be the means of bringing the murderer or murderers to justice." The names of a large number of tradesmen are appended to the notices."

[CitizenX]

I only reads it as it is....

If ... "I watch them looking for me an it gives me fits ha ha" doesnt reference street patrols I don't know what does!!

Oh... you don't think it does so it can't be then...yeh.. didn't read into it as deeply into it as you did.......mishtake (sic) on my part I suppose.

It's written with hindsight because the writer knows that Lusk will become part of ripper fokelore...it's the only reason he's mentioned in the letter, to give the letter some crediability. Trouble is on the 17th Sept Lusk was just the chairman of a committee of letter writing shopkeepers....a nobody and certainly not enough of a character to warrent a six line rant in a 16 line letter!! The faker didn't check his dates closely me thinks!

Kevin

[CitizenX]

Irrespective of my opinion on the 17th September letter, here is a quote from The Times, 12th September 1888 which appears to confirm AP's claims:

"A number of tradesmen in the neighbourhood in which the murder was committed have organized a vigilance committee, and yesterday morning the following notice was published: -" Finding that, in spite of murders being committed in our midst our police force is inadequate to discover the author or authors of the late atrocities, we the undersigned have formed ourselves into a committee and intend offering a substantial reward to any one, citizens or otherwise, who shall give such information as will be the means of bringing the murderer or murderers to justice." The names of a large number of tradesmen are appended to the notices."

Theres no disputing that the WVC posted bills offering a reward on the 12th i've already said that and posted the contents of the bill....AP just cant let rest that I typoed and said there was no mention of bills being posted before the 21st....when I meant there was little press coverage of the WVC before the 21st....just turning the knife.....not very constructive I know....but it's a personality trait so I think I can forgive him

Kevin

[Sam Flynn]

The notion of Lusk actively searching for the Ripper isn't mentioned in prior press releases or handbills. Despite AP's take on the letter, there's a distinct whiff of its author believing Lusk to be personally on his trail ("Lusk can look forever, but he'll never find me... I'm under his nose all the time..."), like some amateur Sherlock Holmes - which he never was. At least the author of "From Hell" didn't make that mistake when he wrote his letter, at which point Lusk's role as reward fundraiser was assuredly in the public domain.