Sweet violets

[Pierre]

That is not saying anything at all about it Pierre. That is asking three questions.

My question to you is why could Cox not have heard Kelly singing both "A Violet From Mother's Grave" AND "Sweet Violets"?

Because there is only a source for Cox having heard one of the songs.

[Pierre]

Once again, Pierre, your powers of comprehension let you down, for that is exactly what I am saying.

It's Jeff who is trying to make something of the point about Cox possibly being illiterate, not me.

It doesn´t matter if she was illiterate, that is the point. There is no meaning in discussing it. And stop making belittling comments.

[Pierre]

Well, for example, the letter written by the person signing as "GOGMAGOG" in November 1888. A normal letter to a newspaper to encourage people to attend the Lord Mayor's Day procession which you turned into a letter from Jack the Ripper containing a coded message about his next murder.

Something which existed in your imagination only.

Again?

Do you want a discussion about this letter? Should we go back to the old thread?

[Joshua Rogan]

We have "a woman" saying it to the press. That is all there is.

Actually, as I pointed out earlier, we have the Times quoting John McCarthy as saying "I woman heard Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" at 1 o'clock this morning."

Presumably the "I" is a typo and should be an "A" or a "1".

[David Orsam]

We have "a woman" saying it to the press. That is all there is.

Right so what it boils down to is that the press reported that a woman heard Kelly singing "Sweet Violets".

Two things follow:

1. We know that the press sometimes make mistakes so perhaps they made a mistake on this occasion bearing in mind the similarity of the lyrics of this song to "A Violet From Mother's Grave".

2. But the press don't always get it wrong and maybe a woman did hear Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" during the evening and, bearing in mind Kelly was said to have been singing for about an hour, it's quite possible.

Consequently, why should I even begin to think that "Sweet Violets" in any way involves some form of communication by the killer?

[Pierre]

Or perhaps I won't.

Just another example of you playing silly games and pretending to have more knowledge about something that you actually possess. So far you have never made good on a single promise to provide hard information to support anything you have ever said on this forum.

David, I am not pretending and not playing games.

I have not made any "promises". Research does not work like that. But I have estimated that there may be some results in October or November. That is just an estimation.

I know this field now and understand how much people have invested in it. I also understand that some people are worried about the case being solved and that others want to see a final solution.

I have three alternatives, David. And I will ask you and the others here what they want. I have decided to let you have a say in the matter.

I can assure you that I am serious.

[David Orsam]

Do you want a discussion about this letter? Should we go back to the old thread?

Yes I would like to have a discussion about this letter.

We can go back to the old thread if you like.

[David Orsam]

I have estimated that there may be some results in October or November. That is just an estimation.

Research doesn't work like THAT Pierre.

You may be doing some research in September, October or November but until you've done it you can't estimate that you will have some positive results. You can only hope.

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=David Orsam;390147]

Right so what it boils down to is that the press reported that a woman heard Kelly singing "Sweet Violets".

That is an historical fact, at least.

Two things follow:

1. We know that the press sometimes make mistakes

Did the press make a mistake with this statement? What is the evidence for it?

so perhaps they made a mistake on this occasion bearing in mind the similarity of the lyrics of this song to "A Violet From Mother's Grave".

And how do we know that Cox was not the one making the mistake?

The sources closest in time to the alleged singing of "Sweet Violets" are the press sources from 10 November. The Cox-source is not produced until the 12 November.

2. But the press don't always get it wrong

That is not a tool for answering the questions here. X = "Sometimes the press is correct, sometimes it is wrong" and therefore > Y (answer to our questions about the song).

and maybe a woman did hear Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" during the evening and,

This is sloppy thinking. "Maybe a woman did hear".

bearing in mind Kelly was said to have been singing for about an hour, it's quite possible.

This too. "Possible".

Consequently, why should I even begin to think that "Sweet Violets" in any way involves some form of communication by the killer?

If you were in my position, you would have been forced to ask questions about that.

[Pierre]

Research doesn't work like THAT Pierre.

You may be doing some research in September, October or November but until you've done it you can't estimate that you will have some positive results. You can only hope.

One can also hope for negative results.

[David Orsam]

Did the press make a mistake with this statement? What is the evidence for it?

Well, firstly, there was no evidence presented at the inquest by anyone that they heard Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" so that creates an element of doubt and suggest the press might have been mistaken does it not?

Secondly, there was evidence presented at the inquest that Kelly was heard singing a different song with very similar lyrics which must surely create the possibility that the press was had identified the wrong song.

So there is a decent argument to be made, based on the evidence presented at the inquest, that the press made a mistake. So far I'm yet to see any form of counter argument from you.

[David Orsam]

And how do we know that Cox was not the one making the mistake?

It's possible but what reason do we have to think that Cox made a mistake?

As I understand your own position, you are saying that the press report about Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" was wrong and she never sang that song.

That being so, what grounds do we have to doubt that Cox heard Kelly singing "A Violet From Mother's Grave". None so far as I can see. You certainly haven't mentioned any.

[David Orsam]

The sources closest in time to the alleged singing of "Sweet Violets" are the press sources from 10 November. The Cox-source is not produced until the 12 November.

What you refer to as the "Cox-source" is her evidence at the inquest. She did not identify Kelly as singing "Sweet Violets" at the inquest so I see no reason to think she was influenced by the press reports.

I thought you always set out a hierarchy of sources whereby an official source, evidence given under oath, took priority over a press report. I don't recall you mentioning that an exception to this is if the press report was published before the sworn evidence.

The most likely answer is that the press thought Kelly was singing "Sweet Violets" but made a mistake and this was corrected by Cox at the inquest who gave the correct title of the song she heard Kelly singing.

[David Orsam]

This is sloppy thinking. "Maybe a woman did hear".

Why is it sloppy thinking? The press reported that a woman heard Kelly singing "Sweet Violets" so maybe a woman did hear Kelly singing "Sweet Violets".

It's not sloppy thinking at all, it's clear and logical analysis.

However, in view of Cox's evidence that she heard Kelly singing a different song with very similar lyrics the likelihood is that the press report was wrong, that Cox was the woman being referred to and the song was "A Violet From Mother's Grave".

That is also clear and logical analysis.

What would not be clear and logical analysis but would be sloppy thinking is if I thought that the killer planted a false story in the press, for no obvious or sensible reason, which said that Kelly was singing "Sweet Violets".

[David Orsam]

If you were in my position, you would have been forced to ask questions about that.

Do you know what Pierre. I'm 100% certain that even if I had seen all the documents you claim to have read I would not be thinking that the publication of the lyrics to "Sweet Violets" might involve any form of communication by the killer, let alone asking the question.