'it was nice' Observation

[mariab]

Yes, “Dear Boss“ obviously refers to blood (to allegedly use as ink for writing the letter), but what I was contemplating was the off-chance that the author of “Dear Boss“ and the “Saucy Jack“ postcard had also produced “From Hell“ (changing his handwriting), and I was simply having thoughts about the plausibility that he might have kept the kidney in ginger beer vs. alcohol/spirits, which would have been easily detected via smell anyway. Just some iddle thoughts... :-)

[Steven Russell]

"I saved some of the proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with but it went thick like glue and I cant [sic] use it. Red ink is fit enough I hope..." (My emphasis). The writer (Dear Boss Letter) clearly means blood.

Best wishes,
Steve.

[mariab]

Maria: the "proper red stuff", I think, was supposed to have been kept in a ginger beer bottle, not actually in ginger beer.

Depends if the author of the letter meant blood or organs. For organs, most obviously, it should have been in ginger beer, otherwise, no “prasarvation“.

[Steven Russell]

A comparison of the handwriting in the letter with that of a known individual might have been revealing not only in terms of letter and word formations but also with regard to spelling. Of course, I am aware that the mis-spollings could have been deliberate but if not, their duplication by a suspect would be good circumstancial evidence. (Remember Michael Caine gently persuading George Sweeny to write "The Jews" on the wall of his cell. He wrote, "The Juwes").

With the kidney, there is a third (albeit unlikely) explanation is there not? The Lusk kidney could have belonged to Eddowes and still have been a hoax perpetrated by someone who had access to the body after the killing.

Maria: the "proper red stuff", I think, was supposed to have been kept in a ginger beer bottle, not actually in ginger beer.

Best wishes all,
Steve.

[Adam Went]

Tom:

Fair enough about Pipeman - Le Grand aside, I think you and I are in relative agreement on that topic anyway.

The main thing from my point of view, Tom - and I said this to Chris George - is that I don't want this to be virtually "A Matter Of Time: Part 2" - I want it to have as much fresh information and deal with as many new and varied issues as possible, rather than treading over the same old ground. Obviously the main focus of the work will be on Fanny Mortimer but it may be wise to slip one or two other Berner Street related topics in there.

I like the Fanny Mortimer business, cuz you think she was hanging loose in her doorway for 30 minutes

I would have thought the best starting point for a debate would be to get what your opponent is saying right first, but hey, as Fleetwood Mac once said, "you can go your own way..."

For god's sake just PM me when you're ready to get started and we can come up with some clear ideas from there.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

It is one of the great mysteries of nature that your mistakes, without fail, seem to coincide with the release of an essay or the pressure of a build up to a conference. Perhaps I might suggest that if this weighs so heavily on your mind, you avoid actually posting on threads such as this until you have the time to contribute properly? After all, it's not like you're contributing anything of use at this point.

Perhaps you're not wrong.

[Tom_Wescott]

Oh Lord, let us not toture readers with more circular debates on Pipeman. Too many variables. I like the Fanny Mortimer business, cuz you think she was hanging loose in her doorway for 30 minutes, whereas I KNOW otherwise, so it's a question I feel readers will be able to walk away from satisfied that it has been answered. Besides, it's pretty obvious to most that Pipeman was Charles Le Grand.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Adam Went]

Maria:

It is one of the great mysteries of nature that your mistakes, without fail, seem to coincide with the release of an essay or the pressure of a build up to a conference. Perhaps I might suggest that if this weighs so heavily on your mind, you avoid actually posting on threads such as this until you have the time to contribute properly? After all, it's not like you're contributing anything of use at this point.

Tom:

One of the great joys in exchanging with you is how you take me so literally on everything, especially my 'cockiness'. You can't seem to tell when I'm just having fun with you. Anyway, what do YOU think the question is that we should try to answer in our write-ups?

Well, I think there's a few different questions we should be trying to answer, and not all of them necessarily related to FANNY (there you are, Maria) - again we should discuss these in private, although I wouldn't mind doing a bit more on the Pipeman theory which we've also discussed.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Anyway, what do YOU think the question is that we should try to answer in our write-ups?

I think an excellent, excruciatingly important question for the future of Ripperology you two could try to resolve in your adversarial write-ups is: Should we be allowed to call Ms. Mortimer by her first name (Fanny) without blushing? I'm sure Adam would have an interesting take on this.

If Maria is Pipewoman, then who would be the unfortunate girl who would be the Broad-shouldered Broad?

I'd rather be called “the Broadshouldered Broad“ than “Pipewoman“ (yikes). The former totally fits my physical description anyway – kinda like Pipeman's physical description fits Le Grand, so maybe I was on Berner Street on the night of September 29 too after all.
To people who don't like broadshouldered broads, I'd say, if they have an hourglass figure, it looks hot. Look at the swimmwear models in the 1980s, Raquel Welch in 1 million years B.C., even Lucy Lawless. I was visiting my mom last week and she kept naggin' that I got too much arms for a chick, but that's what moms traditionally do, nag, plus truth of the matter's I was getting chubby, but since I came back home I accidentally lost 7 pounds by working all day and forgetting to eat, and I'll lose even more, as I'm going to the hills soon. Besides, I'd rather be able to carry luggage like it's nothing and paddle into a wave by a couple strokes than be a size 4 twig, 70 pounds soaking wet.
Still, I bet Tom Wescott wouldn't enjoy being in 1 million years B.C. with a Raquel Welch look-alike, cuz in that case he'd really have to re-invent Jesus Christ.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Adam,

One of the great joys in exchanging with you is how you take me so literally on everything, especially my 'cockiness'. You can't seem to tell when I'm just having fun with you. Anyway, what do YOU think the question is that we should try to answer in our write-ups?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. If Maria is Pipewoman, then who would be the unfortunate girl who would be the Broad-shouldered Broad?

[mariab]

Adam, most obviously I referred to your 30´min. gap. You'll hopefully excuse the typo/lapsus, I'm extremely busy, single-handedly organizing an international conference in Paris for next summer with minimal sponsoring plus taking care of some additional bureaucracy pertaining to 2 different sponsorships, and I'm already pretty beat after some intense travelling. Beat enough to not require Tom's allegedely “boringly, sleep-inducingly long articles“ to collapse in bed. While I'm not convinced that a 5 pages long article with a conflicting quoting of sources is the adequate approach to Berner Street. But the best of lucks for you future article and/or double feature endeavor/duel on Ms. Mortimer.

[Adam Went]

Maria:

You still haven't explained where my argument over a 20 minute gap is.

Tom:

Nobody likes challenges against me, because they never win.

Well then I shall enjoy it all the more for setting a precadent, Tom!

Your low opinion of Ripperologist subscribers aside,

Care to explain this comment? Yet another one which has me lost. I have nothing but respect for Ripperologist and its subscribers as well - it was, after all, the periodical which got me started in article writing 6 years ago...

Or are you concerned I’d win by a landslide? Speaking of polls, in case you haven’t noticed, I’m not at the top of the popularity polls at the moment. Given the high level of politics that dominates online Ripperology, if ever there was a time to ‘challenge’ and ‘beat’ me, this would be it, but it’s a narrow window, me lad.

I couldn't care less how popular on unpopular you are, Tom - and I certainly won't be having any part of your cocky attitude towards this whole thing - what I care about is getting to the truth about this whole Mortimer saga and putting our constant debates into the pages of a periodical and opening it right up for discussion and, hopefully, a solution once and for all. I only look forward to seeing your list of excuses if things don't go your way - it seems you've already started.

Basically I think what we need to do is discuss - in private of course - and agree upon a list of questions we want to address in the piece, then as you say write our bit for each of them, and perhaps even exchange them and offer the chance for a second reply. That's up to you, obviously we don't want it dragging on forever and ever - although I know you have a penchant for writing boringly, sleep-inducingly long articles, which I also won't be part of.

As I said, PM me or e-mail me when you're ready to get started.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Incidentally, both Chris Phillips and Jeff Leahy have expressed plausible ideas pertaining to a 10'min. gap for Mortimer.

It wouldn’t be a ‘debate’, it would be a point/counter-point, like Howard and Monty did in Rip a number of years ago on the graffiti.

Wow, really? Which Rip issue, if anyone recalls? I gotta read this.

If Maria 'pipes' down, should we call her Pipewoman?

Then I can nail Pipeman. :-) (Meaning, his identity.)

[Tom_Wescott]

Is that a challenge, Tom? I like challenges.

Nobody likes challenges against me, because they never win. But actually, it was more like an offer to write an essay together, and I thought a poll would make it more fun.

Well....I don't think that a forum poll would be the way to do it though. Too many people would vote who either haven't read all of the article or haven't read it at all. Besides, you'd get people who would agree with a certain number of each of our points - the smaller points are just as important as the broader picture, so I don't think a poll is the way to sort anything out.

Your low opinion of Ripperologist subscribers aside, I think it would be fun for us and the readers, and knowing ahead of time that there would be a poll might encourage readers to actually READ what we write before they tell us how wrong we both are. Plus, sharing a byline with me would increase your credibility dramatically.

Or are you concerned I’d win by a landslide? Speaking of polls, in case you haven’t noticed, I’m not at the top of the popularity polls at the moment. Given the high level of politics that dominates online Ripperology, if ever there was a time to ‘challenge’ and ‘beat’ me, this would be it, but it’s a narrow window, me lad.

So I would love to have you join me for a debate on that, Tom, and we could turn it into a point-for-point debate in the pages of Ripperologist, and then welcome discussion from members afterwards. If I remember correctly something along this line was mooted a while back.....so, are you in?

It wouldn’t be a ‘debate’, it would be a point/counter-point, like Howard and Monty did in Rip a number of years ago on the graffiti. Essentially, we would pick a single question, in this case – how long did Mortimer stand at her door? We would then retire to our corners to write our differing arguments, and we would turn them into our editor, and since your editor is Chris George, I would imagine he’d be mine as well. And for the first time! Maybe we’d get to read each other’s essay before publication, or maybe not. A poll would be set up at the Casebook (do they have polls at the forums?) as the new issue came out and would run for 30 days. And yes, I would vote for myself, as is my right.

How does this sound to you? And why aren’t we having this discussion via e-mail or something?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott


P.S. If Maria 'pipes' down, should we call her Pipewoman?

[mariab]

For thrillers, surely Frederick Forsyth is the way to go?

Actually from that era I prefer noir.

Judging by your recent performances on the Berner Street related threads, which in itself is quite "hilarious", i'd suggest you be piping down and keeping what shards of dignity you may still have left.

Sounds like you're talking in front of a mirror. :-)