'it was nice' Observation

[Adam Went]

Maria:

For thrillers, surely Frederick Forsyth is the way to go?

Adam, we aren't talking about a hoax organized by the entire WVC collectively, but just by 2 leaders.

I'm aware of that, but where do they get the half a human kidney from? Does the medical student theory fit in here, or some crazy mortician or doctor? They also have to post the parcel, perhaps a postal service workers recognises them and/or the parcel?

The point is Maria that you can't say that only a couple of people were involved, because if it really was from the MEVC, more than that would have had to be involved or at least have knowledge of it, and that opens the door for an ugly can of worms being opened down the track - maybe not in 1888 but it would have had serious consequences even years later.

It's like the primary school class who all know who stuck the drawing pin in the teacher's chair....

Am I hallucinating?! First of all, you haven't proved your point about a 20' min. gap, Adam, and second of all, weren't you asking around for a source mentioning a 10'min. gap for the better part of a year, and when Chris Phillips provided that source a couple months ago, it turned out that the report in question was published TOGETHER in the same newspaper with one of the sources you were quoting? Which makes this either a real hilarious story, or an hypocritical approach by yourself...

I'm so glad to hear that I didn't prove my point about a 20 minute gap, as I don't recall ever even mentioning a 20 minute gap.

Judging by your recent performances on the Berner Street related threads, which in itself is quite "hilarious", i'd suggest you be piping down and keeping what shards of dignity you may still have left.

Tom:

No clue what you mean, unless you'r suggesting that I refuse to acknowledge that Fanny Mortimer is a likely Ripper suspect? I do refuse to acknowledge that. If you mean your strange unsupported notion that she stood at her door for 30 minutes, I've proven time and again with evidence and a simple application of logic that she did not, nor did she say she had. How would you like to do a point/counterpoint article with me on this and then put it up to an anonymous vote with a poll here on the boards? That could be fun.

Is that a challenge, Tom? I like challenges.
Well....I don't think that a forum poll would be the way to do it though. Too many people would vote who either haven't read all of the article or haven't read it at all. Besides, you'd get people who would agree with a certain number of each of our points - the smaller points are just as important as the broader picture, so I don't think a poll is the way to sort anything out.

However! I will confess that I messaged Chris George not so long ago and informed him that in the future I would be working on a new Berner Street piece, focusing specifically on Fanny Mortimer, for Ripperologist.

So I would love to have you join me for a debate on that, Tom, and we could turn it into a point-for-point debate in the pages of Ripperologist, and then welcome discussion from members afterwards. If I remember correctly something along this line was mooted a while back.....so, are you in?

Let me know when you're ready to get started. I think I just might enjoy this.

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

Hi Mr. Vanderlinden.
I totally didn't think about embalming. And I haven't yet read the entire Ultimate, particularly for the Eddowes case. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction.
Plus now I'm more or less convinced that the Lusk kidney was not from Eddowes, esp. since 3 weeks in alcohol vs. 1 week alone would have made a real difference, detectable even in the Victorian era.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Maria.

But I still have a question, to all, but predominantly to Mr. Vanderlinden and to Tom: Pertaining to the kidney, if it was another one (as in, not from Eddowes), would you rather say grave-robbing, or contacts to a hospital/morgue? (The contacts to a morgue unpleasantly reminds me too much of an old theory by Trevor Marriott.)
I for myself would rather imagine grave-robbing or even (drum-roll) the possibility that the kidney came indeed from Eddowes, which in this instance would solve the case, but this is totally a premature thought and not to be discussed presently.

In Chief Inspector Swanson’s report on the kidney, 6 November, 1888, he had this to say:

“…it is the kidney of a human adult; not charged with fluid, as it would have been in the case of a body handed over for purposes of dissection to an hospital, but rather as it would be in the case where it was taken from the body not so destined. In other words similar kidneys might and could be obtained from any dead person upon whom a post mortem had been made from any cause by students or dissecting room porter.”

This indicates that the kidney was taken from a body that was not embalmed so it didn’t come from a robbed grave.

As for it coming from Eddowes Dr. Gordon Brown stated that the kidney showed no signs of decomposition so it must have been placed in the spirits of wine almost immediately after it was removed. As Dr. Brown gave the opinion, on 20th of October, that the kidney had not been in the preservative for more than a week while, Dr. Openshaw stated, on the 19th, that the kidney had not been in spirits for more than ten days, it seems impossible to have belonged to Catharine Eddowes.

Wolf.

[Tom_Wescott]

What you suggest is possible, but the kidney was cut longitudinally, thereby maintaining the intrinsic configuration of the organ. A cut across would have separated the two lobes, rendering it much more incomplete. Either way, how much information was ascertained by the medicos is not clear because the original reports are missing and there is only second hand information to go by. All that can be agreed upon is that it was a human kidney.

If it was a hoax, I would think LeGrande would be capable of perpetrating it.. given what is known about him and you may have found a motive.

Too many big words, bro. It's possible you might be overthinking how the kidney was cut. But I decided long before I'd found Le Grand that Joseph Aarons of the WVC was the most likely person to have hoaxed the kidney/letter. When I learned all about Le Grand all the missing pieces just came into place.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Tom, you know I don't like Le Grand as a suspect, but if you managed to one day somehow prove his involvement and in this case specifically prove that he wrote FH, then I would gladly accept that and eat a large slice of humble pie.

If only the same could be said for you over Fanny Mortimer! A little hypocritical of you, no?

No clue what you mean, unless you'r suggesting that I refuse to acknowledge that Fanny Mortimer is a likely Ripper suspect? I do refuse to acknowledge that. If you mean your strange unsupported notion that she stood at her door for 30 minutes, I've proven time and again with evidence and a simple application of logic that she did not, nor did she say she had. How would you like to do a point/counterpoint article with me on this and then put it up to an anonymous vote with a poll here on the boards? That could be fun.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

To Adam:
Well, Scarpetta and Sherlock Holmes are quite different. :-) So most probably you wouldn't like Cornwell's thrillers.

What if one of the group had been questioned over something by the police and had confessed to the group hoaxing the letter?

Adam, we aren't talking about a hoax organized by the entire WVC collectively, but just by 2 leaders.

If only the same could be said for you over Fanny Mortimer! A little hypocritical of you, no?

Am I hallucinating?! First of all, you haven't proved your point about a 20' min. gap, Adam, and second of all, weren't you asking around for a source mentioning a 10'min. gap for the better part of a year, and when Chris Phillips provided that source a couple months ago, it turned out that the report in question was published TOGETHER in the same newspaper with one of the sources you were quoting? Which makes this either a real hilarious story, or an hypocritical approach by yourself...

To Hunter:
I haven't made up my mind about the GSG either.

[Hunter]

By “longitudinally“ I assume you mean horizontally? I agree that a vertical cut would essentially divide the kidney in half, making harder to examine the intrinsic configuration of the organ. OK, I'm gonna gross you all out now, but would a horizontal cut of the kidney “prasarve“ more of it for eating purposes? (With many apologies for appearing not deferential to the deceased.)

Longitudinally is from top to bottom; in other words divided in a way that each of the two halfs would maintain the integrity of the organ for examination... and yes, that would be the way a kidney is prepared for frying.

Am I to understand that you consider the “From Hell“ letter and kidney as a genuine communication from the Ripper?

I don't know, Maria. It would appear possible. Along with the GSG, I'm not ready to proclaim that neither were from the killer because we don't know who he was or his capacity for such things. I've always imagined that this person may have been in a fantasy world that didn't care about communicating with anyone...at the same time, the Lusk letter has a rather chilling effect... unlike all of the others.

[Adam Went]

Maria:

I haven't read the Scarpetta books, though i've heard plenty about them. Not much into detective fiction unless it's of the Sherlock Holmes variety.

Wolf:

There's multiple ways they could have been busted if the FH letter and kidney was an inside job from the MEVC. What if one of the group had been a police spy keeping an eye on the tactics of the organisation to make sure they weren't up to anything untoward or harmful to the police investigation? That in itself is not so unlikely, I wouldn't have thought.

What if one of the group had been questioned over something by the police and had confessed to the group hoaxing the letter?

Why would the MEVC fake just this one communication and not others given the shock value it gave at the time?

I'm afraid there's just too many implausibilities in the story to make it likely. I certainly don't discount the idea that the communication was a hoax, but if it was, IMO it was from somebody who was not affiliated with the MEVC or any similar organisations.

It seems we are very much in agreement over the Goulston Street Graffiti, however.

Tom:

Yes, I did. But few are on here to learn the truth, Maria. They just like to see themselves chatter about how Tumblety wrote the From hell letter or whatever. The funny thing is, peeps like Adam who say NOW that the From hell letter was likely from the Ripper will miraculously change their tune when it's shown that Le Grand was most likely behind it. LOL. They'd sooner die than give me props or let go of their pet suspect. Happens every time. As for face-kicking, there are some individuals in Ripperology deserving of it, but so far I wouldn't count you among them.

What a bizarre comment.
Tom, you know I don't like Le Grand as a suspect, but if you managed to one day somehow prove his involvement and in this case specifically prove that he wrote FH, then I would gladly accept that and eat a large slice of humble pie.

If only the same could be said for you over Fanny Mortimer! A little hypocritical of you, no?

Cheers,
Adam.

[mariab]

but the kidney was cut longitudinally, thereby maintaining the intrinsic configuration of the organ. A cut across would have separated the two lobes, rendering it much more incomplete.

By “longitudinally“ I assume you mean horizontally? I agree that a vertical cut would essentially divide the kidney in half, making harder to examine the intrinsic configuration of the organ. OK, I'm gonna gross you all out now, but would a horizontal cut of the kidney “prasarve“ more of it for eating purposes? (With many apologies for appearing not deferential to the deceased.)

If it was a hoax, I would think LeGrande would be capable of perpetrating it.. given what is known about him and you may have found a motive.

The motive might have been primarely financial gain for the WVC, but also hostility to George Lusk, perversity, etc..

The kidney was reported to have been 'prasarved' in spirits of wine or just spirits, which, either way, was a distilled version, such as brandy or simply grain alcohol.

Right. I just asked because the “Dear Boss“ letter mentions having kept the “good red stuff in ginger beer“. I assume Victorian doctors would be able to tell away distilled alcohol from ginger beer.

Am I to understand that you consider the “From Hell“ letter and kidney as a genuine communication from the Ripper?

[Hunter]

Not imaginative or clever at all if it was done out of practicality, in order to make comparison to Eddowes' body impossible.

Hi Tom,

What you suggest is possible, but the kidney was cut longitudinally, thereby maintaining the intrinsic configuration of the organ. A cut across would have separated the two lobes, rendering it much more incomplete. Either way, how much information was ascertained by the medicos is not clear because the original reports are missing and there is only second hand information to go by. All that can be agreed upon is that it was a human kidney.

If it was a hoax, I would think LeGrande would be capable of perpetrating it.. given what is known about him and you may have found a motive.

Maria,

The kidney was reported to have been 'prasarved' in spirits of wine or just spirits, which, either way, was a distilled version, such as brandy or simply grain alcohol.

[mariab]

I know what you mean.

Face kicking is a bit harsh, even for some people in Ripperology. By the by, once at a coastal French town I had to kick in the door of my living room, as the doorknob broke, the door got blocked, and I would have been imprisoned there forever, and the door gave in with the second kick, barefoot. So a facekick would be pretty effective, maybe even too much so.
(Luckily they didn't even ask me to pay for the door that time.)

With many apologies for the highjacking.

[Tom_Wescott]

Yes, I did. But few are on here to learn the truth, Maria. They just like to see themselves chatter about how Tumblety wrote the From hell letter or whatever. The funny thing is, peeps like Adam who say NOW that the From hell letter was likely from the Ripper will miraculously change their tune when it's shown that Le Grand was most likely behind it. LOL. They'd sooner die than give me props or let go of their pet suspect. Happens every time. As for face-kicking, there are some individuals in Ripperology deserving of it, but so far I wouldn't count you among them.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Not imaginitive or clever at all if it was done out of practicality, in order to make comparison to Eddowes' body impossible.

That's what I meant, Tom.

Did you also notice that I totally kept my mouth shut about Le Grand's/Aarons' involvement with The Evening News pertaining to Mr. Vanderlinden's “…We are now informed that the information of the receipt of the parcel was sold at a high figure“? See? I can totally keep mum if necessary. Did I just gave you the limelight or what?

So no kick in the face this time, but maybe another time (to paraphrase Stride, IF it was her). And by the by, my experience in faceplant landings as a freestyle snowboarder (as in: “switch railslide 50/50 to 270 exit to faceplant“) might make a facekick not even register. (At least without shoes.)

[Tom_Wescott]

I'd rather not respond too much to Mr. Vanderlinden's post, as Tom would kick my face, and technically/legally he'd be entitled to do so.

This is true. It is perfectly legal to kick a woman in the face if and ONLY if she posts a lengthy reply in response to one Wolf Vanderlinden. This has long been Wolf's burden to bear and is often cited as the reason he does not post more often.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, I don’t actually have a theory for who hoaxed the ‘From Hell’ letter, although the idea that it might have been someone in the Vigilance Committee is not new. I have just been struck by the fact that no one seems to comment, or even know of, the news report (the Star 20 October, 1888) that states:

“…We are now informed that the information of the receipt of the parcel was sold at a high figure, so that the hoax does not appear so stupid as it seemed at first.”

This indicates, to me at least, the possibility that there was an ulterior motive for the hoax. Tom suggests Aarons and Le Grand, something I can’t really comment on, but I would agree that Lusk was probably not involved simply because he seems to have discussed the letter with his family. If he had been involved in the hoax I think he would just have kept quiet about the whole affair.

Oh, believe me, I noticed that and a WHOLE lot more. And you might have noticed the 'highest bidder' was Le Grand's buddy, the Evening News, to whom he'd previously sold his Packer tale.

It was rather imaginative that a hoaxer would send part of a kidney, rather than the whole, and declare that the 'tother piece' he fried and ate... wouldn't you say?

Not imaginitive or clever at all if it was done out of practicality, in order to make comparison to Eddowes' body impossible.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott