Lusk Letter sent to George Lusk of the vigilante committee

[perrymason]

One wonders Sam if Openshaw was correctly quoted in his original assessment. If so, and he backpeddled when asked to stand by it, then we would have some cause to think he did recognize certain distinctive qualities that indicated female, showing signs of Brights Disease, and of an approximate age. I think the Nephritis in sample and victim's remaining kidney, though not damning, makes for some interesting work on the part of a hoaxer. Im wondering if it was worth all the fuss to them, if so.

And to not even use "The Ripper" in the note...its impact is diminished by that element lacking really. If it was signed Yours Truly, Jack the Ripper, my bet is it would be the #1 choice for authentic correspondence.

Best regards.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

What we must bear in mind is that much of what we think was Openshaw's verdict has been passed down to us via a press "exclusive" and Major Smith's distinctly dodgy memoirs ("I did this...", "I saw that..."). As I've been at pains to point out, there ARE no distincty female qualities inherent in the human kidney, except if one were to examine its sex chromosomes - the discovery of which wasn't to happen until the 20th century.

[Dan Norder]

I think the Nephritis in sample and victim's remaining kidney

Sam's already taken you to task for insisting that the doctors said the kidney was female, and I'll do the same for your insistence that the doctors said it had nephritis. The only documented instances of this claim having been made were by highly unreliable sources who got a number of other things wrong. There's no reason to believe it.

[joelhall]

One wonders Sam if Openshaw was correctly quoted in his original assessment. If so, and he backpeddled when asked to stand by it, then we would have some cause to think he did recognize certain distinctive qualities that indicated female, showing signs of Brights Disease, and of an approximate age. I think the Nephritis in sample and victim's remaining kidney, though not damning, makes for some interesting work on the part of a hoaxer. Im wondering if it was worth all the fuss to them, if so.

And to not even use "The Ripper" in the note...its impact is diminished by that element lacking really. If it was signed Yours Truly, Jack the Ripper, my bet is it would be the #1 choice for authentic correspondence.

Best regards.

surely though ginny womens kidneys in this area would be common in the morgue.

secondly i find it doubtful the killer would actually use his given nick name. very few killers appreciate this, so id give more credance to it NOT containing jack the ripper.

[Cap'n Jack]

Sam, I'm going to chance my arm here, just because I'm good at it.
What if Openshaw tested the kidney for 'Kiestein' and was rewarded with a postive value?
He would have known then that the kidney was indisputably of female origin.

This might be old science, but it was a method the medics were using as early as the 1830's; similarly the medics of the age were aware of the fact that a peculiar 'blanching' would be present in the kidney of a person who was a heavy drinker.
What interests me here in particular, is the dramatic effect that mercury or quicksilver can have on the kidneys, increasing and compounding the effects of heavy drinking; and in this regard I think of the criminal case I found where workmen at the Kearley and Tonge warehouse in Mitre Square were stealing quicksilver to sell to the prostitutes of the area.
Could Eddowes have been in Mitre Square for a quicksilver fix?
Could Eddowes have had syphillis at this point in her life?
And could Eddowes have been in the early stages of pregnancy?
And could Openshaw have been absolutely right?

[Sam Flynn]

Dear AP,

This is starting to resemble your dogged "Truncheon-holder" crusade from a year or so ago, and I know you'll just keep on peeling the layers from this particular onion, so I'll leave it there.

I have drawn my conclusions based on sound reasoning and see no reason whatsoever to depart from them. Others are free to look for tenuous loopholes if they wish.

[Dan Norder]

And could Openshaw have been absolutely right?

Comes as it is at the end of a very speculative chain of what-ifs, that's a bit disingenuous. You don't know what Openshaw did or did not do, and certainly this whole line of thought is at odds with what he is on record of having actually said.

[Supe]

AP,

Could ...
Could ...
And could ...
And could ....

And can a young girl from a small mining town in the west find lover and happiness in the big city?

You sound like the soap operas my gransmother listemed to--only not so belevable. I suppose (shades of old Maybrick threads) anything could have happened, but based on what we know none of what you suggest is likely.

Don.

[Cap'n Jack]

Oh, I do enjoy it when I'm scolded for pursuing a simple little truth, and everyone yawns and tells me I'm becoming far too tiresome and boring, just like in the 'truncheon-holder' discussion where I was shown to be absolutely right, and the likes of Stewart Evans had to admit I was; and since then I have discovered Old Bailey statements confirming my argument in full. But hey, I don't crow.
I do note that the main detractors have withdrawn since I mentioned the term 'Kiestein', which of course is a substance only produced by the female of the species, and found in the kidneys of such females, and never in a male kidney; and was easily detectable by doctors as early as the 1830's.
Personally I cannot imagine that Dr Openshaw would not have tested the kidney he examined for traces of Kiestein, as it had been a standard test for over fifty years before 1888.
Kiestein is a unique biological substance, directly linked to the female of the species, commonly found in the kidneys of pregnant women, but also often found in the urinary tract and kidneys of virgins... but as yet has never been found in a male kidney.
I would have thought that this would have been the first test Openshaw conducted on his unknown kidney.

[joelhall]

Oh, I do enjoy it when I'm scolded for pursuing a simple little truth, and everyone yawns and tells me I'm becoming far too tiresome and boring, just like in the 'truncheon-holder' discussion where I was shown to be absolutely right, and the likes of Stewart Evans had to admit I was; and since then I have discovered Old Bailey statements confirming my argument in full. But hey, I don't crow.
I do note that the main detractors have withdrawn since I mentioned the term 'Kiestein', which of course is a substance only produced by the female of the species, and found in the kidneys of such females, and never in a male kidney; and was easily detectable by doctors as early as the 1830's.
Personally I cannot imagine that Dr Openshaw would not have tested the kidney he examined for traces of Kiestein, as it had been a standard test for over fifty years before 1888.
Kiestein is a unique biological substance, directly linked to the female of the species, commonly found in the kidneys of pregnant women, but also often found in the urinary tract and kidneys of virgins... but as yet has never been found in a male kidney.
I would have thought that this would have been the first test Openshaw conducted on his unknown kidney.

i fail to see what point youre trying to make here.

are you arguing that eddowes was pregnant?

[Sam Flynn]

Personally I cannot imagine that Dr Openshaw would not have tested the kidney he examined for traces of Kiestein.

He looked at it, AP - that's all we know. You'd think that the Press Agency would have told the world about "Kiestein" if that's what Openshaw had found - or at least, that they'd have come up with something with more of a basis in science than the lame "ginny kidney".

[Sam Flynn]

i fail to see what point youre trying to make here.

are you arguing that eddowes was pregnant?

AP seems to think that the kidney was pregnant, at least. If it wasn't Eddowes' kidney then, if the press reports and AP's theory are to be believed, then we must look for another London woman, whose kidneys had been implausibly damaged by gin, and who died - 45 years old and implausibly pregnant - around the same time as the murder in Mitre Square.

[joelhall]

AP seems to think that the kidney was pregnant, at least. If it wasn't Eddowes' kidney then, if the press reports and AP's theory are to be believed, then we must look for another London woman, whose kidneys had been implausibly damaged by gin, and who died - 45 years old and implausibly pregnant - around the same time as the murder in Mitre Square.

ok im a few years off qualifying, but im sure looking for kiestein would not tell us this. nor would it be a definite sign that the kidney was female.

[Cap'n Jack]

Sam, you are being rather difficult here, if you don't mind me saying so.
This is all about understanding and exploration.
My understanding leads me to believe that Dr Openshaw could have told the sexual origin of that kidney by just smelling it, as Kiestien left a remarkably pungent odour; and as I've already stated Kiestien is detectable in intact young women, so pregnancy is only one of many viable options, in that a woman who has conceived may have more Kiestien than one who hasn't.
It is linked to the mammary glands, so the 'mood' of the woman may play an influence in the secretion and production of the substance.
Interestingly Dr William Gull was an expert in this regard, and there is a letter written by him in 1850, to Dr Bird, which is useful.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, you are being rather difficult here, if you don't mind me saying so.

I'm not - you are, at least in the context of the fairy tale of the Lusk kidney, that is. In terms of your enlightening me about 19th century ideas of the biochemistry of women of birthing age it has been most interesting, even if I can't seem to find any reference to the phlogiston-like substance called "Kiestein" after the 1850s.

As to Openshaw detecting the Kiestein by smell, remember that any trace of whatever fragrance the kidney might once have possessed would have been compromised, if not completely obliterated, by the absolute alcohol in which it had been soaked.