Lusk Letter sent to George Lusk of the vigilante committee

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Yes, the Burke & hare thing has made me think about certain aspects of ripper case

I do think the ripper had medical knowledge to some extent.

The motivation behind the killings I agree with. It has occurred to me that the killer may have been on some kind of power trip. I was asking in another thread weather the killer had stabbed at the windpipe first and because Eddowes eyelids were cut, it occurred to me that the ripper may have prolonged the victims suffering. Could it be possible that the killer made sure the victims were partially alive whilst cutting open the victims?

Hi Natasha
I doubt it. Everything we know suggest he killed the as quickly and silently as possible. He was a post mortem mutilator not a sadist/torturer.
Also, if he was torturing them, keeping them alive etc., it greatly increased the liklihood of them fighting back, screaming out etc., and as far as we know, no one ever heard a struggle. Schwartz did with stride and a man but I Beleive that was an out of the ordinary attack by the ripper who lost his cool with stride because she would not go with him into an alley, not an attempt to torture.

[RockySullivan]

I agree with Abby that the ripper ate the kidney like he claimed. I assume it would be not well known at all that post-mortem mutilators are more likely to be cannibals than other serial killers....but the writer of the lusk letter if it was a hoax would be a lucky guess. Was there any talk of cannibalism in the press reports before the letter? Was the rumor on the street that the ripper was taking organs to eat them? Or did the letter spark this idea? I still think it's the most likely scenario for why the ripper took the organs...I do think he ate them.

[Natasha]

Ok got it now.
But I think it would be a tad more risky stealing organs from live victims than from dead ones don't you think? : )

Anyway your idea(which I finally got) is kind of like a variation of the Burke and hare theory, except that instead of harvesting organs to sell, a "student" is harvesting them to learn. Either way, in terms of motivation, I don't think so because why then all the extraneous cuts to the face, breasts etc. Medical student or not, I still Beleive the motivation was more along the lines of those of other serial killers, mainly a pleasure with killing and mutilating.

However, in general I don't think that a medical student ripper theory is too crappy. Police at the time were trying to track several down, I Beleive that the ripper must have had some medical/anatomical knowledge, and Beleive it or not there is a new poster here who is a Dr and has just recently written a book along these very same lines.

Hi Abby

Yes, the Burke & hare thing has made me think about certain aspects of ripper case

I do think the ripper had medical knowledge to some extent.

The motivation behind the killings I agree with. It has occurred to me that the killer may have been on some kind of power trip. I was asking in another thread weather the killer had stabbed at the windpipe first and because Eddowes eyelids were cut, it occurred to me that the ripper may have prolonged the victims suffering. Could it be possible that the killer made sure the victims were partially alive whilst cutting open the victims?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

I'm not suggesting that a student would nick organs from the morgue. I'm suggesting that because it would be risky nicking from morgues a way of obtaining them would be from victims
If this 'student' (possible ripper) was interested in the medical field, maybe he wasn't working in any medical industry, hadn't been to an established school of medicine and maybe was trying to teach himself.

The more I write about the medical student/ripper theory the more it sounds like crap to me

Ok got it now.
But I think it would be a tad more risky stealing organs from live victims than from dead ones don't you think? : )

Anyway your idea(which I finally got) is kind of like a variation of the Burke and hare theory, except that instead of harvesting organs to sell, a "student" is harvesting them to learn. Either way, in terms of motivation, I don't think so because why then all the extraneous cuts to the face, breasts etc. Medical student or not, I still Beleive the motivation was more along the lines of those of other serial killers, mainly a pleasure with killing and mutilating.

However, in general I don't think that a medical student ripper theory is too crappy. Police at the time were trying to track several down, I Beleive that the ripper must have had some medical/anatomical knowledge, and Beleive it or not there is a new poster here who is a Dr and has just recently written a book along these very same lines.

[Natasha]

Hi natasha
I totally agree with you that the ripper was probably very organized and knew whitechapel in and out.

If the ripper was a student of medicine, stealing a kidney would be a moot point because the ripper already had the one he removed from eddowes. Or am I still missing something?

Hi Abby

I'm not suggesting that a student would nick organs from the morgue. I'm suggesting that because it would be risky nicking from morgues a way of obtaining them would be from victims
If this 'student' (possible ripper) was interested in the medical field, maybe he wasn't working in any medical industry, hadn't been to an established school of medicine and maybe was trying to teach himself.

The more I write about the medical student/ripper theory the more it sounds like crap to me

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

I guess that makes sense, he may have made a mental note to avoid certain areas. He must have been super organised and must have known Whitechapel like the back of his hand.



As you mentioned in your post about a medical student not risking getting caught nicking organs, I just thought I would add a possible explanation if the ripper was a 'student' of medicine.

Hi natasha
I totally agree with you that the ripper was probably very organized and knew whitechapel in and out.

If the ripper was a student of medicine, stealing a kidney would be a moot point because the ripper already had the one he removed from eddowes. Or am I still missing something?

[Natasha]

Hi Natasha
One of Lawendes companions upon seeing eddowes and a man together made the remark that these places "should be watched". If this was the ripper there is a good chance he heard this statement as they were relatively close. He may have assumed that they were vigilance committee members and hence sent the kidney as a taunt to a vigilance committee who just happened to be Lusks.

Hi Abby

I guess that makes sense, he may have made a mental note to avoid certain areas. He must have been super organised and must have known Whitechapel like the back of his hand.

I'm afraid I do not understand the point you are trying to make re a poor medical student.

As you mentioned in your post about a medical student not risking getting caught nicking organs, I just thought I would add a possible explanation if the ripper was a 'student' of medicine.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby

Your explanation about sending the kidney to the committee makes me scratch my head, because as far as I know no one on the committee made any grim discoveries of the bodies.
There was obviously no indication that the committee made any difference to deterring the ripper.

I agree about the cannibal thing it may have been possible that the killer ate some of the organs, or maybe it was just a chilling sick twist that the killer wanted to portray the notion of doing so and in doing so would, make his crimes appear more shocking.

If a medical student, or someone who really wanted to make it in this field, had something to do with the killings, perhaps this student was a very poor one, after all most of the Drs/students in those days were quite financially secure and would be more likely to have been welcomed in to the medical field. Remember class status was highly regarded, and people that were poor were less likely to achieve getting a job that was above their class.

Hi Natasha
One of Lawendes companions upon seeing eddowes and a man together made the remark that these places "should be watched". If this was the ripper there is a good chance he heard this statement as they were relatively close. He may have assumed that they were vigilance committee members and hence sent the kidney as a taunt to a vigilance committee who just happened to be Lusks.

I'm afraid I do not understand the point you are trying to make re a poor medical student.

[Natasha]

Why send half? A hoaxer would probably not come up with such a subtle a thing. Sending a whole one would have been shocking enough.

Post mortem mutilating serial killers, on the other hand, tend to be cannibalistic, so the letter rings true. And if the killer was upset about being interrupted a lot on the night of the double event then sending it to a vigilance committee makes sense.

Plus I have never bought the medical student could easily get one argument, nor would they risk it.
This wasn't putting a sheep in alpha phi's sorority house or stealing a rival colleges team flag.

Hi Abby

Your explanation about sending the kidney to the committee makes me scratch my head, because as far as I know no one on the committee made any grim discoveries of the bodies.
There was obviously no indication that the committee made any difference to deterring the ripper.

I agree about the cannibal thing it may have been possible that the killer ate some of the organs, or maybe it was just a chilling sick twist that the killer wanted to portray the notion of doing so and in doing so would, make his crimes appear more shocking.

If a medical student, or someone who really wanted to make it in this field, had something to do with the killings, perhaps this student was a very poor one, after all most of the Drs/students in those days were quite financially secure and would be more likely to have been welcomed in to the medical field. Remember class status was highly regarded, and people that were poor were less likely to achieve getting a job that was above their class.

[Natasha]

So would the ripper harbor a secret hatred for Lusk and join the viligant committee to appear as his friend?

That's a good possibility. It would be interesting to investigate everyone who was on the committee

[RockySullivan]

So would the ripper harbor a secret hatred for Lusk and join the viligant committee to appear as his friend? Or was it someone who he had a real fued or rift with? A neighbor or like u suggested his wife's ex or lover.

[Natasha]

I think Lusk is the key. If someone sent you half a Kidney...why would you put it in your drawer for two days? Wouldn't it smell? The story of the man dropping the pencil is interesting...but sounds fantastical. Lusk implies when the stranger said "pick it up" the stranger reached in his pocket. Is he implying then was going to cut his throat right there? Someone carrying a pencil around is interesting too....someone who might carry a pencil might also carry chalk. And the whole drop the pencil "pick it up" trick could have been used to disarm the women and strike while their off guard. Interesting MO like something bundy would do. Did this encounter really happen? Is our stranger the killer or is lusk? If he was suspicious of this stranger you would think he would report the kidney immediately. That would be the vigilant thing to do after all.

Hi Rocky

I agree, why would you leave a Kidney in a drawer. Lusk is important somehow. Someone has suggested that Lusk may have upset/annoyed the killer somehow and that was probably why the kidney and letters were sent to him and not the police.

[Abby Normal]

It would have been normal for a kidney already used for examination purposes to be split longitudinally as well as having been placed in spirits (ethenal.)

Hi hunter
Thanks! But wasn't it preserved in spirits of wine? And not the usual medical preservative?

[RockySullivan]

I think Lusk is the key. If someone sent you half a Kidney...why would you put it in your drawer for two days? Wouldn't it smell? The story of the man dropping the pencil is interesting...but sounds fantastical. Lusk implies when the stranger said "pick it up" the stranger reached in his pocket. Is he implying then was going to cut his throat right there? Someone carrying a pencil around is interesting too....someone who might carry a pencil might also carry chalk. And the whole drop the pencil "pick it up" trick could have been used to disarm the women and strike while their off guard. Interesting MO like something bundy would do. Did this encounter really happen? Is our stranger the killer or is lusk? If he was suspicious of this stranger you would think he would report the kidney immediately. That would be the vigilant thing to do after all.

[pinkmoon]

Maybe because sending half her kidney would be enough?
I know you always really want the killer to do something that proves everything beyond a doubt it's from him, but unfortunately in real life that does not always happen.

Why send only half a kidney ?if possession of the organs was so important to our killer it would kill him to have to post it so wouldn't sending only half be a good compromise.