From Hell (Lusk) Letter likely Fake

[Abby Normal]

The scene observed by Schwartz suggests to my mind a pre-existing relationship between Stride and Broad Shoulders, Abby. Had this not been the case one could expect Stride to have screamed for all she was worth whilst being assaulted. If she knew Broad Shoulders, therefore, it is not unreasonable to suppose that she entered the yard consensually in a bid to mollify her companion. Although it may be coincidental, it is nevertheless interesting to note that Schwartz assumed the fracas he witnessed to have been a marital dispute. The one thing of which we may be certain, though, is that Stride didn't suspect that she was in the company of the man who had already murdered Nichols and Chapman.

Hi Garry
thanks for the response. Entirely plausable I guess.
I too, beleive that Scwartz witnessed strides murderer in BS man, but IMHO think BS man in all likelihood was the ripper.

But I would be remiss if I didn't say that I find it hard to beleive that stride would enter the yard consensually with a man who had just assaulted her, wether she knew him or not.

Also, I did not know that Scwartz believed it was a domestic dispute of some kind.

[Garry Wroe]

If Stride was killed by BS man-How did she get in the yard where her body was discovered?

The scene observed by Schwartz suggests to my mind a pre-existing relationship between Stride and Broad Shoulders, Abby. Had this not been the case one could expect Stride to have screamed for all she was worth whilst being assaulted. If she knew Broad Shoulders, therefore, it is not unreasonable to suppose that she entered the yard consensually in a bid to mollify her companion. Although it may be coincidental, it is nevertheless interesting to note that Schwartz assumed the fracas he witnessed to have been a marital dispute. The one thing of which we may be certain, though, is that Stride didn't suspect that she was in the company of the man who had already murdered Nichols and Chapman.

[caz]

Fine, Caz. But then why kill her? Why not walk away and go in search of a more suitable victim?

Hi Garry,

Because he was a violent man with a sharp knife?

Because he had killed before and had no conscience about killing again?

Because he was a man who liked to get his own way?

Because he saw suspicion in her eyes and it was safer to silence her than let her describe him as a man who had tried and failed to lure her away from the club?

Why do any of these creeps do anything, and why must they act to a script?

The man seen by Lawende and party in company with Eddowes at the entrance of Church Passage was the model of composure. He had a specific purpose in mind and exercised patience in order to attain this goal. According to your own hypothesis, moreover, he was able to exercise this same patient restraint when luring Nichols and Chapman to their deaths. Yet with Stride he lost all self-restraint, exploded into violence, and in a fit of pique slashed the throat of a potential mutilation victim when things didn’t go entirely to plan?

Things didn't go to plan at all if Stride refused to be lured away from that busy club. By the time he was seen with Eddowes, he had her exactly where he wanted her, her hand on his chest. He evidently had as little trouble with Nichols and Chapman. We know that when he was finally alone with a victim he could mutilate, he did explode into violence and he did lose all self-restraint (and we both believe this included MJK), but then he must have gone back into cool, calm and calculating mode when taking his trophies and judging when to leave each scene or risk being caught in the act. So it's all there in spades in this man's psychology to lose it and regain it at will.

More to the point, had he been in the habit of slashing the throat of every problematic potential mutilation victim he encountered, the East End would have been littered with such women every time he stepped out of his front door.

That's just silly, Garry. I'm obviously not talking about a 'habit', but something any violent offender might do when the conditions are against him. We know this one was only successful on a handful of occasions, which suggests his ripping opportunities were not that great, or he wasn't out every night of the week looking. We don't have scores of potential victims reporting a man who walked away after trying to lure them off somewhere. But we do have one or two victims who survived to describe attacks which may have been down to him. He would surely have wanted to keep such outcomes to a minimum.

A man in the papers today (aged 46) has just been jailed for tying up, sexually assaulting, murdering and dismembering a girlfriend's housemate. He has a long history of sexual violence against women, and had long fantasised about tying one up, raping her and killing her. Yet just hours before this murder, he had gone to another woman's house for sex and had tied her to the bed. When she refused to participate in some vile sex act or other, he simply left her there tied up but unharmed. Now I ask you, where is the rhyme or reason to that genuine double event?

Stride's killer could have been caught like this creep if he had left her alive to tell the tale before going on to find another.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz,

A couple of rebuttal points on some specifics within your post;

"Well presumably this 'experienced' killer had previously been able to rely on his victims using their own two feet to get to where he eventually attacked them. If Stride was unwilling to go with him anywhere more suitable, either further into the dark empty yard, or away from the club entirely, he would have had to use force or threats, abort the whole thing or kill her where she stood and scarper. He must have guessed she was waiting there expecting to see other people, or someone in particular, who could have materialised at any moment. It certainly wasn't a safe spot for him to hang around indefinitely if she wasn't planning to go anywhere."

I find it interesting that you suggest its possible Liz wouldnt go further into the yard, and that the killer thought she may have been waiting for someone.. when you also suppose she was soliciting at the time. A woman soliciting would clearly have taken advantage of the darker more private empty yard, or stalls, not stopped feet inside the gate to the street. And I believe youre right...I believe her killer recognized that she was indeed waiting for someone.

Hi Mike,

As briefly as possible, as we are way off topic:

I merely consider the many variables, while you appear married to a single explanation of the evidence. The fact of the matter is that they didn't go further into the yard, and it would have taken both of them to want to do so. Whether or not Stride was soliciting (and I only said she may have been to allow for either possibility), her killer could not have forced her further into the yard against her will without risking her screaming the place down, and her instincts may have told her not to trust this man further than she could throw him. We know from hindsight that she would have been right, if she was the one doing the resisting, and four other local unfortunates had already been murdered in horrible ways since April that year (Smith, Tabram, Nichols and Chapman). If you are right, and she was waiting for someone special, then she had no intention of engaging with any strange men and the point remains - her killer was obliged to kill her where she stood or leave her alive. Certainly, if he thought she was waiting for someone - anyone - he'd have been out of his tiny mind to try mutilating her in the very spot where she was expecting company at any second. He'd have had no choice but to kill her as quickly as possible or not at all if that was the case.

Alternatively, if she was willing to go further into the yard with her killer, he must have been the one to resist, arguably because the location as a whole was just too public for comfort, and one where anyone with murder in mind (with or without mutilation) would not want to find himself trapped. So if he was expecting her to leave the club's premises with him, he was disappointed. He was still obliged to kill her where she stood or leave her alive.

The remaining possibility is that neither of them wanted to go anywhere together because she was waiting there for someone else and all he wanted to do was kill her and get safely away. That still wouldn't clear Jack of the deed, because there was nobody else under suspicion who had a motive, and nobody else who went out with a sharp knife looking for female throats to cut.

I wonder where you presume she was "dossing" that night, since its clear that she wasnt expecting to return that night to the lodging house where she had been staying. So, she needs the 4d to stay at some other lodging house? Or is it probable that she had other plans that didnt require doss, and thats why we see extravagances like the flower and cashous.

Why is it 'clear'? Was it clear to the police at the time? I have no idea where Stride was hoping to spend the rest of the night if she hadn't been murdered, but we can't presume that she had plans that required no money, just because she appears to have spent all hers earlier that evening. If Nichols had not told anyone that she had earned and spent her doss money three times already and would soon earn it again and get her head down for a few hours, would we now be speculating that she had plans that didn't require doss money, and that's why we see the extravagance of an unfamiliar bonnet?

"What a pretty flower I have, and cachous to sweeten my breath. I'll soon earn my doss money back now."

Who's to say that could not have been on Stride's mind as she headed for the club?

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Why would we not, Caz, given that his motivation on the night in question was murder and mutilation?


Fine, Caz. But then why kill her? Why not walk away and go in search of a more suitable victim?

The man seen by Lawende and party in company with Eddowes at the entrance of Church Passage was the model of composure. He had a specific purpose in mind and exercised patience in order to attain this goal. According to your own hypothesis, moreover, he was able to exercise this same patient restraint when luring Nichols and Chapman to their deaths. Yet with Stride he lost all self-restraint, exploded into violence, and in a fit of pique slashed the throat of a potential mutilation victim when things didn’t go entirely to plan?

I’m sorry, Caz, but that for me is a step too far. It is inconsistent with what we know of this man’s psychology. More to the point, had he been in the habit of slashing the throat of every problematic potential mutilation victim he encountered, the East End would have been littered with such women every time he stepped out of his front door.

So I say again, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, about the Berner Street murder to imply that Liz Stride died at the hands of Jack the Ripper. None of the behavioural commonalities which emerged through the deaths of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly were manifest in this event. Not a single one of them. Indeed, probability would appear to suggest that Stride was slain by Broad Shoulders. If so, we may discount any possibility of Stride as a Ripper victim.

But then I know that for some this is a step too far.

Hi Garry
If Stride was killed by BS man-How did she get in the yard where her body was discovered?

[Garry Wroe]

You had better watch those reasonable and rational thoughts Garry, they dont do much good with respect to the issue of Liz Strides inclusion in the tally.

All we can do, Mike, is stick to the evidence and interpret it as honestly and rationally as possible. Hopefully this approach will inspire some to take a renewed look at the Stride murder and base their conclusions on the evidence rather than traditional doctrine.

Broadshouldered Man and Pipeman are elements of a story, they have not been confirmed as real individuals, nor is there any confirmation of ANY altercation involving Liz Stride outside the gates at around 12:45am.

True, Mike. But if Schwartz was fabricating the Broad Shoulders incident he got very lucky indeed with Dr Blackwell’s lower estimate relating to Stride’s time of death.

Under those circumstances.. Im sure you agree that the club and its members do look potentially a bit more culpable, particularly when it would follow based on an empty street during that period mentioned, that Liz was already on club property when the "incident" occurred. Only the people at the club or in that yard or passageway would be prime suspects.

This isn’t something to which I’ve given a great deal of thought, to be honest, Mike. I’ve spent the last twenty-odd years questioning what was an almost universal belief in Liz Stride as a Ripper victim. The tide appears to be turning. Once it has I’ll perhaps look a little more closely at the implications of such.

Redeeming Thread wise remark......we have a story that a well dressed Irishman appeared in a shop asking the shopkeeper to read the published address of Lusk a few days before the package arrived at Lusks door, since the timing is so obvious, what of this fellow? Is he likely Jack...a well dressed Toff?

I’ve always believed that the killer was a local nondescript, Mike. This man was a chameleon. He was rarely noticed even when he was seen. A toff would have stuck out like a sore thumb. Not only would he have been seen, he would have been noticed and remembered too. I suspect, therefore, that the well dressed Irishman is yet another red herring.

[Michael W Richards]

So I say again, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, about the Berner Street murder to imply that Liz Stride died at the hands of Jack the Ripper. None of the behavioural commonalities which emerged through the deaths of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly were manifest in this event. Not a single one of them. Indeed, probability would appear to suggest that Stride was slain by Broad Shoulders. If so, we may discount any possibility of Stride as a Ripper victim.

But then I know that for some this is a step too far.

You had better watch those reasonable and rational thoughts Garry, they dont do much good with respect to the issue of Liz Strides inclusion in the tally.

I agree with most of what you summarized above, obviously. What I would like to add is that we do not have any substantive evidence for BSM, other than in the reminiscences of a statement given by someone who does not appear in any records of the Stride Inquest, and someone who it appears may have had links to a club member or members. And of course, as with Louis, and Isaac, and Eagle, and Mrs D, and Gillen, and Lave, and the others in attendance, we must consider that the contents of their statements may have been adjusted to favorably represent the club and its members.

The addition of BSM and Pipeman as off site likely gentile assailants, and as you point out, one being the probable killer based on that tale.....to me, seems extremely fortuitous for a club not well thought of by the authorities even before the murder.

Broadshouldered Man and Pipeman are elements of a story, they have not been confirmed as real individuals, nor is there any confirmation of ANY altercation involving Liz Stride outside the gates at around 12:45am.

If you take Israel and set him aside, as it appears was done for the Inquest, then you have a quiet and almost empty street, save a young couple, from the time of PC Smiths departure until, presumably, Louis's arrival.

Under those circumstances.. Im sure you agree that the club and its members do look potentially a bit more culpable, particularly when it would follow based on an empty street during that period mentioned, that Liz was already on club property when the "incident" occurred. Only the people at the club or in that yard or passageway would be prime suspects.

Redeeming Thread wise remark......we have a story that a well dressed Irishman appeared in a shop asking the shopkeeper to read the published address of Lusk a few days before the package arrived at Lusks door, since the timing is so obvious, what of this fellow? Is he likely Jack...a well dressed Toff?

Best regards

[Garry Wroe]

Again, why would we expect to see the killer's 'normal crime scene behaviour' in this instance?

Why would we not, Caz, given that his motivation on the night in question was murder and mutilation?

With Nichols they may have met on the main Whitechapel Road then walked together to Buck's Row; with Chapman it could have been Commercial Street and thence to the backyard in Hanbury. Similarly with Stride, if he saw her by the club entrance, apparently trying to pick up punters there, he would have wanted her to go with him away from those prospective punters. While a 'normal' punter might have been content to risk a quick fumble right there in the yard, her killer was no normal punter. If he wanted to mutilate her like the others he needed somewhere they would be entirely alone for a good many minutes. The club was never going to be a 'normal crime scene' in this respect; it was merely where Stride had appeared to be trawling for customers.

Fine, Caz. But then why kill her? Why not walk away and go in search of a more suitable victim?

The man seen by Lawende and party in company with Eddowes at the entrance of Church Passage was the model of composure. He had a specific purpose in mind and exercised patience in order to attain this goal. According to your own hypothesis, moreover, he was able to exercise this same patient restraint when luring Nichols and Chapman to their deaths. Yet with Stride he lost all self-restraint, exploded into violence, and in a fit of pique slashed the throat of a potential mutilation victim when things didn’t go entirely to plan?

I’m sorry, Caz, but that for me is a step too far. It is inconsistent with what we know of this man’s psychology. More to the point, had he been in the habit of slashing the throat of every problematic potential mutilation victim he encountered, the East End would have been littered with such women every time he stepped out of his front door.

So I say again, there is nothing, absolutely nothing, about the Berner Street murder to imply that Liz Stride died at the hands of Jack the Ripper. None of the behavioural commonalities which emerged through the deaths of Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly were manifest in this event. Not a single one of them. Indeed, probability would appear to suggest that Stride was slain by Broad Shoulders. If so, we may discount any possibility of Stride as a Ripper victim.

But then I know that for some this is a step too far.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Caz,

A couple of rebuttal points on some specifics within your post;


"Well presumably this 'experienced' killer had previously been able to rely on his victims using their own two feet to get to where he eventually attacked them. If Stride was unwilling to go with him anywhere more suitable, either further into the dark empty yard, or away from the club entirely, he would have had to use force or threats, abort the whole thing or kill her where she stood and scarper. He must have guessed she was waiting there expecting to see other people, or someone in particular, who could have materialised at any moment. It certainly wasn't a safe spot for him to hang around indefinitely if she wasn't planning to go anywhere."

I find it interesting that you suggest its possible Liz wouldnt go further into the yard, and that the killer thought she may have been waiting for someone.. when you also suppose she was soliciting at the time. A woman soliciting would clearly have taken advantage of the darker more private empty yard, or stalls, not stopped feet inside the gate to the street. And I believe youre right...I believe her killer recognized that she was indeed waiting for someone.

"I have argued that she may have been outside the club seeking doss money, to replace the sixpence that was not found on her body. I said nothing about her choosing to conduct her business 'nearly on the street'. Like Chapman, she presumably would have met any prospective customers 'on the street', or by the club entrance, then taken them somewhere suitable if they seemed trustworthy and able to pay."

I wonder where you presume she was "dossing" that night, since its clear that she wasnt expecting to return that night to the lodging house where she had been staying. So, she needs the 4d to stay at some other lodging house? Or is it probable that she had other plans that didnt require doss, and thats why we see extravagances like the flower and cashous.

Best regards

[Abby Normal]

Police questioning uncovered no such candidate, Abby, and nor did Fanny Mortimer see anyone retreating from the yard during the ten minutes or so that she idled at her front door.


Then Diemschutz would have found Stride alive, Abby. And what about the haematic evidence? The bloodflow that had reached the bottom of the yard as well as the clotting about the body are strongly suggestive that the throat had been cut several minutes before Diemschutz appeared on the scene.


The bloodflow from the neck wound provides demonstrable proof that Stride could not have walked, crawled or staggered anywhere after her throat was slashed. Had she got herself into an upright position the blood would have run down her shoulder and possibly her chest. Since it didn’t we may be confident that she was attacked where she was found.


Perhaps. Though this doesn’t explain the discrepant throat wound sustained by Stride, nor the fact that she was uniquely laid on her side rather than on her back in preparation for the supposed intended abdominal mutilations.


Again, though, Abby, this fails to explain the lack of strangulation, the incongruous throat wound, the positioning of Stride’s body, and so forth. In short, nothing about the Stride killing was consistent with the Whitechapel Murderer’s normal crime scene behaviour. Nothing. This isn’t to say that Stride couldn’t have been a victim of Jack the Ripper, merely that the possibility is extremely remote in my view.

Hi Garry
Thanks for the reply

Police questioning uncovered no such candidate, Abby, and nor did Fanny Mortimer see anyone retreating from the yard during the ten minutes or so that she idled at her front door.

maybe they disturbed him unknowingly. There was singing-maybe that did it or someone talking by the side door which was "half open". Fanny Mortimer said she was at her door from 12:30 til 1:00 but she did not see any of the other witnesses or Stride or Dienschutz for that matter. She said she only saw Goldstein and the couple so I doubt she was at her door the whole half hour watching the comings and goings of people like a hawk. Ironically, she said she believed the killer was interuppted by Diemschutz.

Then Diemschutz would have found Stride alive, Abby. And what about the haematic evidence? The bloodflow that had reached the bottom of the yard as well as the clotting about the body are strongly suggestive that the throat had been cut several minutes before Diemschutz appeared on the scene.

When Diemschutz realized it was a body he immediately ran into the club to check on his wife and said that she was "dead or drunk" so he himself was unaware initially if she was alive or dead. She could have been dead or unconscious (and soon to expire) when he first saw her-restricted bloodflow to the brain can render one unconscious and then dead in a matter of a minute or so, if not seconds.
Dieschutz wife said that when she came out to view the body that blood was still "trickling" from the wound. I dont think anyone mentions "Clotting" until later.

The bloodflow from the neck wound provides demonstrable proof that Stride could not have walked, crawled or staggered anywhere after her throat was slashed. Had she got herself into an upright position the blood would have run down her shoulder and possibly her chest. Since it didn’t we may be confident that she was attacked where she was found.

Stride was found with blood on her hand. In this scenario, she stems the flow of blood from her neck with her hand and if she crawled the blood would have probably dripped directly onto the ground where it was not detected by the police because of the wet pavement from the rain.

Perhaps. Though this doesn’t explain the discrepant throat wound sustained by Stride, nor the fact that she was uniquely laid on her side rather than on her back in preparation for the supposed intended abdominal mutilations.

Again, though, Abby, this fails to explain the lack of strangulation, the incongruous throat wound, the positioning of Stride’s body, and so forth. In short, nothing about the Stride killing was consistent with the Whitechapel Murderer’s normal crime scene behaviour. Nothing. This isn’t to say that Stride couldn’t have been a victim of Jack the Ripper, merely that the possibility is extremely remote in my view.

I think thats because this was not a normal pickup for the ripper. I think for the first time he may have encountered a woman who did not want to go immediately into an alley with him. After finally realizing she is not going to go, he cuts her throat in an act of anger-In my mind the most likely scenario is that Schwartz saw the attack, the ripper cut her throat in the street and then high tailed it, and Stride hearing people from the club, struggled toward the sounds and expired in the yard.

[caz]

Hi Garry,

Again, why would we expect to see the killer's 'normal crime scene behaviour' in this instance? This should be remarkably simple to grasp for those who accept that his normal pre-crime behaviour was to engage with a prospective victim in one location, before accompanying her to another for the purpose of mutilating her there.

With Nichols they may have met on the main Whitechapel Road then walked together to Buck's Row; with Chapman it could have been Commercial Street and thence to the backyard in Hanbury. Similarly with Stride, if he saw her by the club entrance, apparently trying to pick up punters there, he would have wanted her to go with him away from those prospective punters. While a 'normal' punter might have been content to risk a quick fumble right there in the yard, her killer was no normal punter. If he wanted to mutilate her like the others he needed somewhere they would be entirely alone for a good many minutes. The club was never going to be a 'normal crime scene' in this respect; it was merely where Stride had appeared to be trawling for customers.

Can anyone honestly say that if Chapman's killer had next tried to pick up a woman who refused to go quietly to where he could really get stuck in, he would not under any circumstances have slit her throat where she stood, before moving swiftly on to find a woman who would? And if that could have been the case (because surely not all Whitechapel unfortunates were too desperate, too sick, or too drunk to put up any resistance) would the physical evidence at this crime scene not fit rather well with such a scenario?

Love,

Caz
X

[Garry Wroe]

Because he was scared off before Diemshutz arived by someone from the club.

Police questioning uncovered no such candidate, Abby, and nor did Fanny Mortimer see anyone retreating from the yard during the ten minutes or so that she idled at her front door.

Because someone was off a minute or two on there times or estimations and Diemschutz did interupt the killer

Then Diemschutz would have found Stride alive, Abby. And what about the haematic evidence? The bloodflow that had reached the bottom of the yard as well as the clotting about the body are strongly suggestive that the throat had been cut several minutes before Diemschutz appeared on the scene.

The killer actually cut her throat in the road and took off because of Scwartz, and hearing the noise from the club, Stride struggled toward help and expired in the yard

The bloodflow from the neck wound provides demonstrable proof that Stride could not have walked, crawled or staggered anywhere after her throat was slashed. Had she got herself into an upright position the blood would have run down her shoulder and possibly her chest. Since it didn’t we may be confident that she was attacked where she was found.

the killer pulled her in the yard, cut her throat, heard the noisy club and thought it better to high tail it than stay and mutilate.

Perhaps. Though this doesn’t explain the discrepant throat wound sustained by Stride, nor the fact that she was uniquely laid on her side rather than on her back in preparation for the supposed intended abdominal mutilations.

Also, if the killer knew he needed at least/apprx 5 or so minutes to accomplish his goal of organ removal, then if he determines he wont have this time, he knows its pointless to even start the mutilations or to "get one or two cuts in".

Again, though, Abby, this fails to explain the lack of strangulation, the incongruous throat wound, the positioning of Stride’s body, and so forth. In short, nothing about the Stride killing was consistent with the Whitechapel Murderer’s normal crime scene behaviour. Nothing. This isn’t to say that Stride couldn’t have been a victim of Jack the Ripper, merely that the possibility is extremely remote in my view.

[lynn cates]

perhaps . . .

Hello Dave. Thanks.

"He had an idea who "boyfriend" was?"

So you are suggesting a new man? Very well.

"Perhaps an idealist of some kind? (ring any bells?)"

Idealist? Socialist club member?

Cheers.
LC

[caz]

The yard was empty so were the stables, why would an experienced killer ignore the dark yard for the passageway so close to the street?

Hi Mike,

Well presumably this 'experienced' killer had previously been able to rely on his victims using their own two feet to get to where he eventually attacked them. If Stride was unwilling to go with him anywhere more suitable, either further into the dark empty yard, or away from the club entirely, he would have had to use force or threats, abort the whole thing or kill her where she stood and scarper. He must have guessed she was waiting there expecting to see other people, or someone in particular, who could have materialised at any moment. It certainly wasn't a safe spot for him to hang around indefinitely if she wasn't planning to go anywhere.

That holds true, even if you want Schwartz and Pipeman taken out of the equation, leaving you with no manhandling by BS man at 12.45, just the murder itself, discovered around 1am.

Ive heard you argue that Stride was likely prostituting herself as well Caz, perhaps you could explain a prostitutes choice of nearly on the street to conduct her business vs far back off the street, in an empty yard. Like in Hanbury.

I have argued that she may have been outside the club seeking doss money, to replace the sixpence that was not found on her body. I said nothing about her choosing to conduct her business 'nearly on the street'. Like Chapman, she presumably would have met any prospective customers 'on the street', or by the club entrance, then taken them somewhere suitable if they seemed trustworthy and able to pay.

It's a bit rich to accuse me of speculation when it comes to the Lusk letter and what its author claims and doesn't claim, considering your own speculation that it was Eddowes's killer who sent it and chalked the message on the wall, and that both actions somehow imply that he didn't kill Stride.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

Ive always found it interesting that Eagle is supposed to have returned around the same time as we believe Liz Stride vanishes from the credible witness view...PC Smith. He leaves at 12:35 and minutes later along comes Morris, and we can presume if one believes Israel,... that someone across from the gates is smoking in a doorway, and a drunk man is weaving his way towards the club.

Why didnt Eagle state definitively that the body wasnt there when he passed the "spot"...he said he walked close to the building through the passageway to the door,.. so why didnt he see a live Liz on the street or in that passageway? She is not seen after PC Smith leaves, by impartial and credible sources, so she is probably in that passageway.

That passge must be a black hole....Lave, Eagle and I would presume Liz Stride are all in that small spot near the gates at 12:40...and none of them see either of the others.

Cheers