Dear Boss

[Tom_Wescott]

I am assuming from your recent article in CE that you are proposing Le Grand as being the Ripper. Are you suggesting that Le Grand took Eddowes' kidney, but then procured an entirely different kidney to send to Lusk? If so this doesnt make any sense to me at all...

You seem to be suggesting that Le Grand was the real serial killer, at the same time pretending to be the Ripper (i.e. hiding his true identity from Aarons) and sending a fake Eddowes kidney in a box, when he had the real kidney. (???)

Rob H

Hi Rob. My essay, as you'll recall, did not argue that Le Grand was Jack the Ripper, but proved he WAS a suspect and surveyed various data to come to an understanding of why he was a suspect. Long before I came upon Le Grand, my research led me to conclude that the most likely hoaxer of the 'From hell' letter was Joseph Aarons, the treasurer for the WVC. Naturally, once I learned that Aarons had hired a conman with a history of writing false letters, who is known to have been able to alter his handwriting, and would have his woman and subordinates write letters on his dictation, I had no choice but to consider that Le Grand played a hand in the 'From Hell' letter also. Let us not forget that Le Grand was employed by the Evening News....and you know where the WVC boys took the kidney BEFORE going to the police? The Evening News. And who was our source for all the erroneous information linking the kidney to Eddowes, which Dr. Openshaw had to go public in order to refute? Joseph Aarons. Just prior to receipt of the kidney, the WVC went on a publicity campaign to raise funding, claiming the money was dried up. POOF! A letter with a kidney appears, they go to Le Grand's guy at the Evening News, Aarons tells the press a lie about the provenance of the kidney, the money rolls in and a hundred years later there's a movie named after the ruse. Way too much smoke for there not to be fire, if you ask me.

As for the kidney, it would be disingenuous of me to argue for it having been from Eddowes when the medical evidence doesn't suggest that to me. Don't you think?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

I assume that the suspicions on the WVC treasurer Joseph Aarons are related to the “box of toys“ postcard, but no time to research this further tonight. Unless there are hints to the contrary (and I won't be as exigent as to demand evidence!), my opinion about the suspicion that Le Grand and Aarons “were in it together to organize a hoax with a Ripper letter and half a kidney just to spur the public into giving more donations“, but of course Lusk got NO wind whatsoever of all that: too phantastic a story.
To Rob House:
Your post totally cracked me up!
I think that Wescott got a bit carried away when aswering to Abby, as at this point he's considering Le Grand both as a candidate for the Ripper and a candidate for JUST hoaxes (Ripper letters, grape stalks, the Lodger, and, might I add, Mr R. Batchelor and his doctor-alike customer with the bleeding leather bag!)
By the by, I was starting to consider the question of making dinner and I was going to go for a salad, but all that talk about kidneys and Simon Wood's disciplining his ducks and getting them all in a row reminds me there's some duck filet in my fridge (covered in blood, I might add), which, in wacky Paris logic, is much cheaper and easier to find than steak or chicken! So, I guess tonight will be carnivore...

[Tom_Wescott]

Wescott wrote:
There's an extremely compelling argument that Le Grand authored, or was involved in authoring, the 'From Hell' letter, that have I have not yet published.
Surely by this you don't just mean the red ink?

What red ink? We're talking about the 'From Hell' letter.

The body from which the kidney would have been extracted should have been in the right age too, as in definitely less than 50.

I'm not gonna touch that. But let me say that IF you believe the From Hell letter/kidney was legit, then you might have to change your mind either about that or Le Grand's complicity. Personally, I don't see any evidence that the kidney was from Eddowes.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

P.S. I don't doubt at all that you were under the impression Lynn concocted the IWMEC/Schwartz theory. But take it from the originator, that it is purely supposition.

[robhouse]

Hi Tom,
You wrote:
"I do not believe the kidney was Eddowes'. A guy like Le Grand would have had no trouble procurring such a specimen."

I am assuming from your recent article in CE that you are proposing Le Grand as being the Ripper. Are you suggesting that Le Grand took Eddowes' kidney, but then procured an entirely different kidney to send to Lusk? If so this doesnt make any sense to me at all...

You seem to be suggesting that Le Grand was the real serial killer, at the same time pretending to be the Ripper (i.e. hiding his true identity from Aarons) and sending a fake Eddowes kidney in a box, when he had the real kidney. (???)

Rob H

[mariab]

Wescott wrote:
Is this Lynn's theory now? I remember when I conceived it, then saw it bastardized by Perry Mason. Is there a thread where Lynn has posted his version?
I fully understood that it was Lynn Cates' theory, as he presented it on the (extremely voluminous and meandering, so good luck with your search) thread A modern day BS/Liz. As for Perry Mason (the one here on casebook, not the famous lawyer), I've never had the honour of encountering him, being too young and having joined casebook just 4 months ago.

[mariab]

To Tom Wescott:
Yes, I know that Batchelor was unfortunately a relatively common name in Victorian London (if not as much as Kelly, Schwartz, and Levy), and that the Strand publican from the 1890's might not necessarily be the same James Batchelor as in 1888/89, though certainly a good possibility. Has anybody reseached R. Batchelors in the 1891 census?
Wescott wrote:
There's an extremely compelling argument that Le Grand authored, or was involved in authoring, the 'From Hell' letter, that have I have not yet published.
Surely by this you don't just mean the red ink?

As for "a guy like Le Grand" having had no trouble to have his minions procure a fresh kidney, I have some serious trouble accepting this. The kidney in question should have not been preserved in alcohol (or ginger beer!) for too long, otherwise this fact would have been immediately detected by the doctors. Thus the kidney should have been fresh – just a few days. I'd have to check the statistics for death rates in Victorian Whitechapel, to see how often fresh bodies went inside fresh graves. Where's Colin Roberts (Septic Blue) when one needs him?!
The body from which the kidney would have been extracted should have been in the right age too, as in definitely less than 50. (Otherwise it would have been recognized, even with Eddowes' disease and all. Gender would have played no role.)
Anyway, the best of lucks with your research and book.

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm sitting on the fence, but very seriously considering Lynn Cates' theory about the IWMC having potentially arranged Schwartz's testimony about Stride, BS, and Pipeman

LOL, is this Lynn's theory now? I remember when I conceived it, then saw it bastardized by Perry Mason. Is there a thread where Lynn has posted his version?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby. Le Grand was an angry man. Not normal at all. I'm very careful about assigning motives. But Le Grand lost money to spend time working on the vigilance committee, so I don't believe he was trying to keep his job. And incidentally, the guy pulling the strings behind the WVC was Joseph Aarons moreso than Lusk. Between you and me, I'm pretty sure the Lusk letter/kidney was hoaxed between Aarons and Le Grand to spur the public into giving more donations. It worked like a charm. Subsequently Lusk and Le Grand had quite the falling out. I do not believe the kidney was Eddowes'. A guy like Le Grand would have had no trouble procurring such a specimen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom

Between you and me, I'm pretty sure the Lusk letter/kidney was hoaxed between Aarons and Le Grand to spur the public into giving more donations. It worked like a charm.

Very interesting.

[Tom_Wescott]

Batchelor

By the by, has anybody investigated/identified the OTHER R. Batchelor mentioned in The Echo of October 18th 1888, if he was a relation of WVC private investigator James H. Batchelor (proprietor of the Lion Public House at 309 The Strand, that is, 8 doors down from where Le Grand and Co. stand in 1888)?

The identity of Le Grand's one-time partner, J.H. Batchelor, has not been confirmed, although both Debra Arif and myself think he was likely one James Batchelor, an ex-policeman. Also, it's by no means certain that the Strand publican from the 1890's was the same James Batchelor, though certainly a good possibility. Because we don't know his identity for certain, it's impossible to establish if he was related to R. Batchelor from the article you cited. Batchelor was a surprisingly common surname at that time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Abby. Le Grand was an angry man. Not normal at all. I'm very careful about assigning motives. But Le Grand lost money to spend time working on the vigilance committee, so I don't believe he was trying to keep his job. And incidentally, the guy pulling the strings behind the WVC was Joseph Aarons moreso than Lusk. Between you and me, I'm pretty sure the Lusk letter/kidney was hoaxed between Aarons and Le Grand to spur the public into giving more donations. It worked like a charm. Subsequently Lusk and Le Grand had quite the falling out. I do not believe the kidney was Eddowes'. A guy like Le Grand would have had no trouble procurring such a specimen.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Abby Normal]

It's really out of necessity that I have to consider Le Grand in context with the Ripper letters, and certainly not out of some old-school notion that it will bolster my theory. Even if I proved beyond doubt that Le Grand wrote the Dear Boss letter, it really wouldn't go any way towards establishing that he was a murderer at all.
There's an extremely compelling argument that Le Grand authored, or was involved in authoring, the 'From Hell' letter, that have I have not yet published, and perhaps a suggestion that he authored the Oct. 6th 'Threat' letter (talked about in Berner Street Mystery Part 1). None of this interests me too much, but for sake of completion I'll be talking about the letters in my book. The From Hell connection does excite me though, but only on an academic level, not because I think authoring the letter makes him the Ripper, because it doesn't.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom

There's an extremely compelling argument that Le Grand authored, or was involved in authoring, the 'From Hell' letter,


This is really fascinating stuff.

Do you think Grand sent the kidney to Lusk to keep up Lusk's interest in continuing to pay Grand on as a PI in the case?

[mariab]

Tom Wescott wrote:
Even if I proved beyond doubt that Le Grand wrote the Dear Boss letter, it really wouldn't go any way towards establishing that he was a murderer at all.
Absolutely, if someone managed to establish that Le Grand was the author of Ripper letters, this wouldn't necessarily imply that Le Grand was the Ripper.
I recall about Le Grand's letters and the “From Hell“ letter in Berner Street Mystery Part 1, and I certainly have it in mind to compare the hands again in the near future. (I hazily recall that the hands in the Oct. 6 threat letter and the “From Hell“ letter didn't look too dissimilar.)
As for Le Grand having been a murderer, it's a fairly viable possibility, especially since he boasted about it in a letter. It simply needs to be researched, as well as everything else about him.
By the by, has anybody investigated/identified the OTHER R. Batchelor mentioned in The Echo of October 18th 1888, if he was a relation of WVC private investigator James H. Batchelor (proprietor of the Lion Public House at 309 The Strand, that is, 8 doors down from where Le Grand and Co. stand in 1888)? Many apologies if this is a already researched and cleared out matter, but I'm a newbie.
EAST-END ATROCITIES – A MYSTERIOUS BLACK BAG, DAGGER FOUND
A very mysterious incident, in connection with arrest of the man at King-street Police-station, Westminster, whose apprehension was yesterday announced in The Echo, has transpired this morning. It appears that on Monday the man went into the shop of Messrs. Bellamy Bros., Railway-approach, Charing-cross, and after a brief but somewhat incoherent chat with Mr. Batchelor, the manager, he suddenly placed a black bag on the counter, and left the shop. The incident has come to the knowledge of the police authorities, but up to the present they thought it prudent to regard the affair as a secret. The bag contained a razor, a dagger (which bore more or less recent marks of blood stains), several miscellaneous but almost valueless odds and ends, together with a broken piece of looking-glass and a small piece of soap. It is regarded as somewhat suspicious that these latter articles are similar to those found on the Whitechapel victims.
MR. BATCHELOR'S STATEMENT
The shiny black bag and its contents were inspected this morning by an Echo reporter, who called at Messrs. Bellamy's in order to verify certain reports respecting their strange visitor. Mr. R. Bachelor, the manager, made the following statement:- "He was such a mysterious-looking person that I could not make him out at all, but it was not until after he left the shop that it somehow occurred to me that his mind was unhinged from some cause or other, and then the Whitechapel murders and the affair at Whitehall came across my mind. It was from reading the special edition of last night's Echo that I felt convinced the black bag was an incident worth mentioning. Well, as soon as the man came into the shop he took out a pencil and commenced to write some words which no one could read. The he straightened himself up, remarked 'You must not be surprised to hear I'm Jack the Ripper - I'm a most mysterious man' and darted out of the shop. He made use of the expression, 'I'm used to cutting people up, and can put them together again. The police are all disguised, and wherever I go I meet them.' He looked to me like a doctor or doctor's assistant, but was rather shabby." The razor and dagger found in the bag have been examined by Dr. Bond.

[Abby Normal]

This is developing into a speculative debate, and I do not like too much speculation. I merely offered a good reason for seeing it as a journalistic ploy - which is what the police thought it was.

However, to address your points, if written by a journalist, they would not want to seem too keen and would obviously be watching to see how best to 'play it'. Anyway the papers were still reporting on the Chapman inquest and the 'coroner's theory' for a few days after the inquest ended, so the need to boost the story wasn't immediate.

Hi Stewart

This is developing into a speculative debate, and I do not like too much speculation.

I understand and thanks for the response.

However, to address your points, if written by a journalist, they would not want to seem too keen and would obviously be watching to see how best to 'play it'. Anyway the papers were still reporting on the Chapman inquest and the 'coroner's theory' for a few days after the inquest ended, so the need to boost the story wasn't immediate.[/QUOTE]


One of the things that has always made me wonder about the "Dear Boss" letter was if it was a hoax by the CNA why they would wait several days to send to the police. I have specifically asked a couple of times on this thread to posters in general why the wait and I beleive you are the first to give an explanation, so I appreciate that. thanks again.

[Tom_Wescott]

I know that Wescott is concentrating on the numerous threat-letters his favorite suspect Le Grand wrote to several ladies, and my suggestion would be, try to find le Grand's original handwriting, and compare it to the Ripper letters.

It's really out of necessity that I have to consider Le Grand in context with the Ripper letters, and certainly not out of some old-school notion that it will bolster my theory. Even if I proved beyond doubt that Le Grand wrote the Dear Boss letter, it really wouldn't go any way towards establishing that he was a murderer at all.
There's an extremely compelling argument that Le Grand authored, or was involved in authoring, the 'From Hell' letter, that have I have not yet published, and perhaps a suggestion that he authored the Oct. 6th 'Threat' letter (talked about in Berner Street Mystery Part 1). None of this interests me too much, but for sake of completion I'll be talking about the letters in my book. The From Hell connection does excite me though, but only on an academic level, not because I think authoring the letter makes him the Ripper, because it doesn't.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[mariab]

Mr Wood, I fully agree with your evaluation of Lynn Cates' intellect. I'm sitting on the fence, but very seriously considering Lynn Cates' theory about the IWMC having potentially arranged Schwartz's testimony about Stride, BS, and Pipeman – and apologies for mentioning this here, in the wrong thread.
Pertaining to Schwartz and the IWMC there is ongoing research, in which I wished I could participate, but currently I'm engaged at 150% on research pertaining to totally other matters here in Paris. Possibly in a few weeks, when I have a bit more time in my hands.