just an idea - thoughts please :)

[The Grave Maurice]

And yet, consider this: the man seen with Eddowes was the smooth-talking operator of the duo, the guy who lured the victim to the location, but the other half of the pair was waiting in the shadows in Mitre Square and might have been the actual killer.

I can't argue with that, Chris, and it's certainly a possibility. However, lex parsimoniae wisely advises us not to create complications where none exist. A lone killer seems, to me, to meet all the requirements and I'm not inclined to add new players unless necessary.

[Rubyretro]

If we seriously need to entertain an accomplice, I think the most likely scenario is to picture someone covering up for the killer after the fact. Like someone where he lived, or worked, or a close friend who had suspicions, or actual knowledge, but for any number of reason's chose to keep quiet.
We don't normally class such a person as an accomplice, legally speaking it is, but this forum typically means someone assisting in the actual murders, as you suggest, which I think is less likely.

Regards, Jon S.

I agree with you Jon -'no man is an island' is a apt expression ; Given that the killer lived in an overcrowded area teeming with with people, and must have had a job somewhere, somebody or some people must have covered for him or ignored suspicions.....this might be done in all innocence. So I believe in an unwitting accomplice/s.

[DVV]

Hello mon cher

I can't argue with that, Chris, and it's certainly a possibility. However, lex parsimoniae wisely advises us not to create complications where none exist. A lone killer seems, to me, to meet all the requirements and I'm not inclined to add new players unless necessary.

I'm in complete agreement. It must be pointed out also that the thing a prostitute would have hated most, was to find another client waiting.
This would have immediatly aroused suspicion and anger or shouts about the due price, etc etc. In short, it wouldn't have helped the killer.
Moreover, the only witness that vaguely suggested two possible killers is Schwartz, but neither Pipeman nor BSM are hiding in the dark.

Dvvvv

[Malcolm X]

yes it is interesting isn't it, because my guess is that JTR didn't mind being seen at all, e.g he was seen with A.Chapman/ Eddowes and still didn't seem to care and thus went on to kill them.

so what does this tell us about JTR?

1... he was intelligent and realised that being seen meant nothing.

2....he only needed to be extremely careful, just before he killed, so there's no need to go crazy checking beforehand.... plus being too careful earlier on looks suspicious and a lot like you're stalking, ``good evening officer, it's pretty cold tonight isn't it``..... yes this might be the best way !!!!

3....his disguise is to be seen as a variation of Joe Average only.... because this means that he is one of 50 000 men and as such, you have no idea who he is...... He's a nameless face on a bank of terracing at Chelsea Vs West Ham, the Shed end, they all looked the same didn't they !

4....he is not leaving a murder scene dressed as LA DE DA and carrying a black bag/ parcel, because he is bound to be arrested dressed like this and him doing so, plus carrying evidence of his latest murder is just rediculous..... pigs will fly before this ever happens !

.

[Malcolm X]

what about Stride, because here we have quite a few men that were close by, so if JTR isn't one of these, he either has to wait for all of them to clear off, or he has to walk by them.

but, he will not walk by if they are still there and his target is in sight, because for Dutfields to work, this area has to be deserted BEFOREHAND, this means that BS was very careless, not only didn't he realise that he was being followed, but he also didn't see Pipeman up ahead; or he wasn't quite in view as BS turned towards Stride.... whatever, this is still too careless for my liking..... i dont think he's JTR.

if you think how smart JTR is, and you accept my arguements about how careful he is based on common sense, then you realise just how wrong BS seems as JTR.

JTR considering the road junction up ahead, would have walked past Dutfields gone to the junction, stopped and turned around, because he now knows that that area is safe too, he would not have gone straight to Stride without checking ahead first.... BS looks like a drunk !

[DVV]

How lucky drunks can be is proverbial, and I believe JtR belongs to the category.

[Wickerman]

...
4....he is not leaving a murder scene dressed as LA DE DA and carrying a black bag/ parcel, because he is bound to be arrested dressed like this.....

But many were arrested, well-dressed men carrying black bags, but all of them released, so he still had nothing to worry about. So long as he had no organs in the bag, a change of clothes maybe, weapons, gloves, all can be explained away, as indeed they were.

This killer may have been arrested on suspicion, but released like the rest of them.

Regards, Jon S.

[RedBundy13]

yes there isn't much that an accomplice can do, and keeping an eye out for someone coming along is something that's easy for the killer to do anyway.




A.Chapman was killed in a risky location, so if you're going to make a new ripper movie.... you would need to show JTR walking into the back yard and then staring around at the windows for some time, before deciding to finally kill her....or not !

so we might have two stages.

1...... he casually looks to see if the location is ok to kill
2...... he gets there, chats her up.... gets his hands close to her throat and checks yet again that everything is ok, he then very quickly grabs her !


i think it's very important for him to check right before he's about to kill her... this is because it takes time to chat her up etc, so if you saw nobody a minute ago, this doesn't mean that there's nobody there right now.

.

I agree Malcolm, he would have definitely looked to see if anyone was watching. That being said, I believe she would have to have been killed before Cadoche made his trips that morning to the privy.
No matter how confident JtR was, I dont believe he would have taken a risk like that, to kill someone while another was walking just a few feet away. Too risky.
What would have happened if she had made some sort of noise? Cadoche might have checked and then game over for JtR.

[DVV]

That being said, I believe she would have to have been killed before Cadoche made his trips that morning to the privy.
No matter how confident JtR was, I dont believe he would have taken a risk like that, to kill someone while another was walking just a few feet away. Too risky.

Then what was it that fell against the fence ?

What would have happened if she had made some sort of noise? Cadoche might have checked and then game over for JtR.

Cadosh would have run, fainted, or been stabbed, perhaps to death, had he jumped the fence (which I doubt he would have done). Or would have he needed to rush again to the privy ?

Game over for JtR, certainly not.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=DVV;203981]

Then what was it that fell against the fence ?

That is one of the big mysteries of the killings for me...... why would Jack kill hearing Cadoche just on the other side of the fence ?

I suppose that one answer might be that he had gone so far with his threatening behaviour that he had to carry on, or else Annie would have
called for help.

A theory that I toyed with on another thread was that Annie was already dead and Mrs Long saw another couple (I don't believe in her description of the 'killer') about to go into the yard. It could be that another prostitute said 'no' when she saw the body, and one of the couple leaned heavily against the fence. Maybe a prostitute and client discovering the body would not want to 'get involved' for obvious reasons ?

I'm not altogether convinced by Richardson's story.

[DVV]

I see no big mystery here, Ruby. Many serial killers have taken more risks than Jack in Hanbury Street - Kurten, Dahmer and so many more.
As for Long, she's not the best witness because she couldn't see the man's face, but there is little doubt she has seen the ripper. It was too late and there is no evidence of any other prostitute soliciting in the street.

In this respect, Mrs Long is as much a good witness as Lawende, Levy and Harris : all have seen the fatal couple only minutes before the murder, quite close to the (future) scene.

[Rubyretro]

In this respect, Mrs Long is as much a good witness as Lawende, Levy and Harris : all have seen the fatal couple only minutes before the murder, quite close to the (future) scene.

[/QUOTE]

I don't think that we can be sure that any of them saw Jack with a victim.

In each case a couple were seen near the site of a Ripper murder, and so it
was assumed that it was JTR with his victim. In neither case were the couple actually seen entering the crime scene, nor is it certain that the woman was Annie or Kate. There were other entrances to Mitre Square -one of which makes more sense- and a query over the timing in Hanbury Road

[curious4]

Accomplice

Hello all,

The police must have thought that there was an accomplice, otherwise the Home Office would never have issued the free pardon to anyone not directly involved in the murders themselves.

Personally, with my "Posh Jack" fixation, I believe in the old family retainer: "Oh deary me, his Lordship´s had one of his funny turns again!"

Cheers,
C4

[lynn cates]

no razor

Hello Ken.

"However, lex parsimoniae wisely advises us not to create complications where none exist."

Thank you for NOT calling it "Ockham's Razor."

Cheer.
LC

[lynn cates]

unaware

Hello Red.

"No matter how confident JtR was, I don't believe he would have taken a risk like that, to kill someone while another was walking just a few feet away. Too risky."

Instead of confidence, suppose he were totally dissociated and unaware of his surroundings?

Cheers.
LC