Analysis of the Rippers MO

[Abby Normal]

Dying, being sick or "lost mind" is rarely a cause for serial killers to stop altogether, so I doubt any of those were the reasons.

Hello Abby,

I think I would disagree with dying. It tends to make you stop.

c.d.

you misunderstand. Ive not heard of any known serial killer who stopped because they died. Its a rare or never happened.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi wulf
Its signifcant because other ripper victims also had their skirts hiked up. Its significant because its exposing the part of the body that the ripper liked to target.
The fingernail scratches is different I concede that, but again, its on the area of the body the ripper liked to target. theres also enough other similarities to the other victims that IMHO she was probably a ripper victim. where did he go after that? I think he might have had one last victim in the pinchin torso, and then who knows??But I would venture if he wasnt one of the named suspects he moved away, stopped for other personal reasons, or was arrested for another offence. Dying, being sick or "lost mind" is rarely a cause for serial killers to stop altogether, so I doubt any of those were the reasons.

Can't see it TBH. No sign of strangulation, a knife sharp enough to cut the throat and followed by scratches, and heard running away. In none of the on street cases was the ripper heard and possibly not even seen after the event, yet he is surprised enough here to be heard running off.

I think strangulation is important. I think the ripper probably started out as a strangler well before 1888.

[Abby Normal]

Can't see it TBH. No sign of strangulation, a knife sharp enough to cut the throat and followed by scratches, and heard running away. In none of the on street cases was the ripper heard and possibly not even seen after the event, yet he is surprised enough here to be heard running off.

I think strangulation is important. I think the ripper probably started out as a strangler well before 1888.

Hi wulf
Thats an interesting point actually. was there evidence that Bury strangled anyone? I know he beat her, but did he ever try to strangle Ellen?

[Aethelwulf]

Hi wulf
Thats an interesting point actually. was there evidence that Bury strangled anyone? I know he beat her, but did he ever try to strangle Ellen?

Apart from Ellen's ultimate demise via strangulation with a cord no, not that I know of. We wouldn't know though I doubt. You do hear of men that are rough with partners and grab throats, can see him doing that during one of their arguments.

You know, I think Tabram was JtR's first Whitechapel murder, but it was so frenzied I don't see it as his first. Considering all that was done to Tabram, no one hears a squeak, not even the woman asleep feet away on the other side of a wall. My question is, does her killer get that good and efficient at what was probably strangulation on a first a outing? I think when the ripper arrived in the east end he knew what he was doing and then started adding the knife, first Millwood, then Tabram and the C5. I would also point out the report on Mylett as well 'the killer had obviously made a study of it' (strangulation). Now, 0.8 mile from Bury's house a woman is strangled with a cord like Ellen, In December 1888 after Bury has sold his horse and cart and probably no longer going to Whitechapel. At about the right time that night, there is a short man hurrying away from Poplar answering to the name Bill. Ellen, out looking for Bury later in December: 'look, here comes Bill'. I have a plausible theory as to why there were no mutilations with that murder, but for a more relevant thread.

Last points, the 'no' heard in Hanbury Street, I reckon that is Chapman's realisation of an arm or cord being sipped around her neck. The gasps heard by Lilley for Nicholls - her being strangled.

[Abby Normal]

Apart from Ellen's ultimate demise via strangulation with a cord no, not that I know of. We wouldn't know though I doubt. You do hear of men that are rough with partners and grab throats, can see him doing that during one of their arguments.

You know, I think Tabram was JtR's first Whitechapel murder, but it was so frenzied I don't see it as his first. Considering all that was done to Tabram, no one hears a squeak, not even the woman asleep feet away on the other side of a wall. My question is, does her killer get that good and efficient at what was probably strangulation on a first a outing? I think when the ripper arrived in the east end he knew what he was doing and then started adding the knife, first Millwood, then Tabram and the C5. I would also point out the report on Mylett as well 'the killer had obviously made a study of it' (strangulation). Now, 0.8 mile from Bury's house a woman is strangled with a cord like Ellen, In December 1888 after Bury has sold his horse and cart and probably no longer going to Whitechapel. At about the right time that night, there is a short man hurrying away from Poplar answering to the name Bill. Ellen, out looking for Bury later in December: 'look, here comes Bill'. I have a plausible theory as to why there were no mutilations with that murder, but for a more relevant thread.

Last points, the 'no' heard in Hanbury Street, I reckon that is Chapman's realisation of an arm or cord being sipped around her neck. The gasps heard by Lilley for Nicholls - her being strangled.

whos the woman strangled with a cord .8 miles from burys house?

[Aethelwulf]

whos the woman strangled with a cord .8 miles from burys house?

Actually it is more like .9 to 1 mile, Mylett. I was getting mixed up with Maidman Street, home of Ada Wilson, about 0.7-0.8 mile from Bury. Remembering Bury would assault his wife when money was demanded and not forthcoming, and also that he slept with a penknife under his pillow, and had two of penknives in his house in Dundee, one the murder weapon. Bury had shown an interest in Ellen's throat following a financial argument (the scene Haynes discovered with Bury kneeling on her apparently about to cut her throat). Call me naive, but on form and location and MO, Bury is fairly and squarely in the frame for Wilson and Mylett.

As we're on the signature stuff here, Bury put a seven inch cut from just above Ellen's sternum to her pubis that finished with a shallow stab, with a similar (shorter) would roughly parallel. Lower down was the main rip of through the belly wall exposing that the second medical report said 'laid open the abdomen'. Now those wounds are superficially similar to what has been described for Nicholls. A similar deep jagged wound in the lower abdomen is seen in the mortuary sketch of Eddowes. Bury's wound was ragged. I think this is how the ripper started, looking at the sketch and description, a deep ripping cut. There is just no comparison with Mackenzie here, her wounds are a step down from Ellen Bury. Bury also focused to stabs to each groin, similar described for Tabram and Eddowes I think. There are no groin wounds on MacK. A short oblique incision is also recorded running down from the bridge of Ellen's nose, although the second medical report, quite a while after first, describes this as more of a bruise. Finally, Bury cut through Ellen's labium through her anus dividing the sphincter muscle, pretty much exactly the same as Eddowes. Add in what appear to be some ritualistic burning of her clothes (as with Kelly), time (~2am i think it was) and blunt force trauma (possibly Tabram), and there really is no comparison.

the argument is usually that Mack should be given more weight as it occurred in Whitechapel, but that argument to me is now rendered totally obsolete by the knowledge that police found out Bury had:

1. been missing from home for the Chapman murder, Kelly murder and one other that they could find out about, and acted suspiciously those nights.
2. from questioning the neighbours the police concluded Bury quite possibly had the opportunity to commit the crimes, so these other addresses he was using must have put him either in or within easy reach of Whitechapel
3. the police thought bury looked very like the man talking to Kelly on the night of the crime, and fitted well other descriptions for two other murders

The man with the most similar abdominal and genital signature to the ripper is probably out and about in the east end on the nights in question. He fits the profile, he fits the physical description, carried knives, he used prostitutes, his presence/absence bookends the murders. He was a perverted, violent, clever and cunning man.

I'm not saying it is fact or proven, just that logically, objectively, the man with form and presence in the area is way more likely to be the ripper than the unknown killer of Mack in my opinion

[Abby Normal]

Actually it is more like .9 to 1 mile, Mylett. I was getting mixed up with Maidman Street, home of Ada Wilson, about 0.7-0.8 mile from Bury. Remembering Bury would assault his wife when money was demanded and not forthcoming, and also that he slept with a penknife under his pillow, and had two of penknives in his house in Dundee, one the murder weapon. Bury had shown an interest in Ellen's throat following a financial argument (the scene Haynes discovered with Bury kneeling on her apparently about to cut her throat). Call me naive, but on form and location and MO, Bury is fairly and squarely in the frame for Wilson and Mylett.

As we're on the signature stuff here, Bury put a seven inch cut from just above Ellen's sternum to her pubis that finished with a shallow stab, with a similar (shorter) would roughly parallel. Lower down was the main rip of through the belly wall exposing that the second medical report said 'laid open the abdomen'. Now those wounds are superficially similar to what has been described for Nicholls. A similar deep jagged wound in the lower abdomen is seen in the mortuary sketch of Eddowes. Bury's wound was ragged. I think this is how the ripper started, looking at the sketch and description, a deep ripping cut. There is just no comparison with Mackenzie here, her wounds are a step down from Ellen Bury. Bury also focused to stabs to each groin, similar described for Tabram and Eddowes I think. There are no groin wounds on MacK. A short oblique incision is also recorded running down from the bridge of Ellen's nose, although the second medical report, quite a while after first, describes this as more of a bruise. Finally, Bury cut through Ellen's labium through her anus dividing the sphincter muscle, pretty much exactly the same as Eddowes. Add in what appear to be some ritualistic burning of her clothes (as with Kelly), time (~2am i think it was) and blunt force trauma (possibly Tabram), and there really is no comparison.

the argument is usually that Mack should be given more weight as it occurred in Whitechapel, but that argument to me is now rendered totally obsolete by the knowledge that police found out Bury had:

1. been missing from home for the Chapman murder, Kelly murder and one other that they could find out about, and acted suspiciously those nights.
2. from questioning the neighbours the police concluded Bury quite possibly had the opportunity to commit the crimes, so these other addresses he was using must have put him either in or within easy reach of Whitechapel
3. the police thought bury looked very like the man talking to Kelly on the night of the crime, and fitted well other descriptions for two other murders

The man with the most similar abdominal and genital signature to the ripper is probably out and about in the east end on the nights in question. He fits the profile, he fits the physical description, carried knives, he used prostitutes, his presence/absence bookends the murders. He was a perverted, violent, clever and cunning man.

I'm not saying it is fact or proven, just that logically, objectively, the man with form and presence in the area is way more likely to be the ripper than the unknown killer of Mack in my opinion

you make a powerful argument. Need more time to compare and contrast, : )

[Abby Normal]

hey wulf
do we have a physical description of bury? do we know height and hair color?

[Aethelwulf]

hey wulf
do we have a physical description of bury? do we know height and hair color?

said to have been 5'2" stocking feet, 5'3"1/2 in boots, so a hat, depending on type, could add anywhere between 1/2 and couple of inches. So saying he could appear around 5'4" to 5'6" is fair, although you have to question how accurate the witnesses were at guessing heights from a brief glimpse at night. Did they even know their own height accurately? I did have a try at guessing heights walking around a supermarket and concluded I was only sure for those people about the same height as me. Take Lawende and Levy who give totally different estimates for the same man.

Hair was dark but with a fair moustache/ inclined to be sandy. There is also the 'powerful chest' perhaps for BS man. Steve Earp has a good bit on his site comparing Bury with the various witnesses. What I would say is that it is close enough, in the context of his later actions.

[Abby Normal]

said to have been 5'2" stocking feet, 5'3"1/2 in boots, so a hat, depending on type, could add anywhere between 1/2 and couple of inches. So saying he could appear around 5'4" to 5'6" is fair, although you have to question how accurate the witnesses were at guessing heights from a brief glimpse at night. Did they even know their own height accurately? I did have a try at guessing heights walking around a supermarket and concluded I was only sure for those people about the same height as me. Take Lawende and Levy who give totally different estimates for the same man.

Hair was dark but with a fair moustache/ inclined to be sandy. There is also the 'powerful chest' perhaps for BS man. Steve Earp has a good bit on his site comparing Bury with the various witnesses. What I would say is that it is close enough, in the context of his later actions.

Thanks wulf
The dark hair and fair mustache is interesting, as it covers alot of the witnesses apparent discrepencies between brown/fair hair. If any of the police named suspects/persons of interest were the ripper, its most likely to have been Bury IMHO.

[Aethelwulf]

Thanks wulf
The dark hair and fair mustache is interesting, as it covers alot of the witnesses apparent discrepencies between brown/fair hair. If any of the police named suspects/persons of interest were the ripper, its most likely to have been Bury IMHO.

Yes agree. It wouldn't be a shock if it was ever proven somehow.

[Losmandris]

I certainly agree with the report in terms of including Martha Tabram. I am about 90% sure she was a victim. I don't think Coles was but constantly waiver over McKenzie. on her I'm 50/50.

[Abby Normal]

I certainly agree with the report in terms of including Martha Tabram. I am about 90% sure she was a victim. I don't think Coles was but constantly waiver over McKenzie. on her I'm 50/50.

Hi Los
remember both tabram and mackenzie both had their skirts hiked up, like the rest. Thats kind of the final straw for me. Im at like 80% for both.

[FISHY1118]

I certainly agree with the report in terms of including Martha Tabram. I am about 90% sure she was a victim. I don't think Coles was but constantly waiver over McKenzie. on her I'm 50/50.

I'll go with sir Melville Macnaghten that the Whitechapel murderer was responsible for ""5 victim's and 5 victim's only.""

I very much doubt Tabram was a jtr victim' for obvious reason surrounding all the circumstances with her murder.

[Losmandris]

Hi Los
remember both tabram and mackenzie both had their skirts hiked up, like the rest. Thats kind of the final straw for me. Im at like 80% for both.

Very good point. I think its these details, that clinches it. Something only the same killer would do!