Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Analysis of the Rippers MO

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

    Hi Jeff,

    The Alice McKenzie murder is of particular interest as it's candidacy would eliminate a number of suspects. However, the M.O. compared to other victims is contradictory. Phillip's evidence at the autopsy indicates a return to the double cut to the throat, although they might more accurately be described as extended stab wounds rather than slicing cuts:
    The wound in the neck was 4 in. long, reaching from the back part of the muscles, which were almost entirely divided. It reached to the fore part of the neck to a point 4 in. below the chin. There was a second incision, which must have commenced from behind and immediately below the first. The cause of death was syncope, arising from the loss of blood through the divided carotid vessels, and such death probably was almost instantaneous.

    However, the marks on the abdomen were attributed by Phillips to five fingernail scratches rather than cuts from a knife:
    There were five marks on the abdomen, and, with the exception of one, were on the left side of the abdomen. The largest one was the lowest, and the smallest one was the exceptional one mentioned, and was typical of a finger-nail mark. They were coloured, and in my opinion were caused by the finger-nails and thumb nail of a hand. I have on a subsequent examination assured myself of the correctness of this conclusion.
    [Coroner] Are the injuries to the abdomen similar to those you have seen in the other cases? - No, Sir. I may volunteer the statement that the injuries to the throat are not similar to those in the other cases.
    [Coroner] Were the finger-nail marks on the body those of the woman herself? - My impression is that they were caused by another hand. These marks were caused after the throat was cut.


    Scratching rather than cutting indicates to me a different signature involved in the McKenzie attack. If Stride is to be given consideration as a JtR victim that was subject to interruption, then surely Coles must also be included under that category.

    Best regards, George
    Hi George
    I disagree strongly that the "MO compared to the other victims is contradictory." and also that the sig is different. similarities:

    death by severance of the left carotid artery (MO, possibly sig)
    vertical gash to midsection (IMHO the main or first step of the sig of all the ripper murders)
    cut to the privates (sig again)
    bruising on the body (MO)
    killed while lying down (MO)
    victimology (MO)
    location and time(MO)
    Skirt hiked up to expose midsection (MO) This is a bigee for me and final straw IMHO that she was a ripper victim.

    The fingernail scratches, while superficial, target the midsection/privates, and Harry Ds post about Sutcliff, another post mortem mutilator is intriguing. I concede though that this is different than the rest, but not contradictory. The lack of organ removal is different too, but could be attributed to a number of circs, including interruption.

    On the whole Mckenzie is consistent in both MO and sig to the rest of the ripper victims, just not in extent, and IMHO was probably a ripper victim. I think difference was due to the ripper being inebriated, sick, didnt have a sharp knife and or interrupted.
    "Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?"

    -Edgar Allan Poe


    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

    -Frederick G. Abberline

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Harry D View Post
      So Alice McKenzie may well have been killed nine months after Mary Kelly; the knife may well have been different from that which was utilized on the earlier victims; her injuries may well have been less severe than those inflicted hitherto. But once viewed in context of the Sutcliffe example, none of these factors are in themselves sufficient to render McKenzie a non-Ripper victim. And the coincidence of the abdominal fingernail scratches is intriguing, to say the least."[/I]
      Is there anything that shows the scratches in the McKenzie case were fingernail scratches or is that just the other poster's opinion?


      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by FrankO View Post
        Hi George,

        I have no problems with your position regarding the 3 victims you mention. In fact, I know of a case of one serial killer who applied 2 (or even 3) distinctly different MO's for different types of victims, so changes in MO do occur sometimes. His name is Cedric Maake, who, in the Wemmer Pan area of Johannesburg, killed men and women walking alone, whom he bludgeoned to death with rocks. But in that same area he attacked couples in cars, shooting the men and raping the women. And then he also killed tailors in the inner city area, attacking them in their shops with hammers.

        As to the MO used in the Coles case, I still think she probably wasn't a Ripper victim.

        All the best,
        Frank
        agree.I think sadler probably killed her. he was a hot mess that night. He was charged and many of the police thought he did it. and too many differences to the rest- no evidence of strangulation, no abdominal wounds and a tad too far out in time.
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

          agree.I think sadler probably killed her. he was a hot mess that night. He was charged and many of the police thought he did it. and too many differences to the rest- no evidence of strangulation, no abdominal wounds and a tad too far out in time.

          I haven't looked at that case for a while, but my recollection is that a man seen with Coles shortly before she was murdered looked nothing like Sadler.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post

            I haven't looked at that case for a while, but my recollection is that a man seen with Coles shortly before she was murdered looked nothing like Sadler.
            From memory, the body of Francis Coles was found in the darkest spot on a path underneath a railway arch. That doesn't appear to be a drunken man who has had his nose put out of joint hunting down someone in an act of revenge. There's a reason why her body was found in the darkest spot, more than likely chosen in a calculated manner as opposed to in a drunken rage.
            Last edited by Fleetwood Mac; 11-09-2022, 08:39 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Fleetwood Mac View Post

              From memory, the body of Francis Coles was found in the darkest spot on a path underneath a railway arch. That doesn't appear to be a drunken man who has had his nose put out of joint hunting down someone in an act of revenge. There's a reason why her body was found in the darkest spot, more than likely chosen in a calculated manner as opposed to in a drunken rage.

              Point taken, but Sadler was cleared.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post


                Point taken, but Sadler was cleared.
                I'd agree with you in that it probably wasn't him.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                  Hi George
                  I disagree strongly that the "MO compared to the other victims is contradictory." and also that the sig is different. similarities:

                  death by severance of the left carotid artery (MO, possibly sig)
                  vertical gash to midsection (IMHO the main or first step of the sig of all the ripper murders)
                  cut to the privates (sig again)
                  bruising on the body (MO)
                  killed while lying down (MO)
                  victimology (MO)
                  location and time(MO)
                  Skirt hiked up to expose midsection (MO) This is a bigee for me and final straw IMHO that she was a ripper victim.

                  The fingernail scratches, while superficial, target the midsection/privates, and Harry Ds post about Sutcliff, another post mortem mutilator is intriguing. I concede though that this is different than the rest, but not contradictory. The lack of organ removal is different too, but could be attributed to a number of circs, including interruption.

                  On the whole Mckenzie is consistent in both MO and sig to the rest of the ripper victims, just not in extent, and IMHO was probably a ripper victim. I think difference was due to the ripper being inebriated, sick, didnt have a sharp knife and or interrupted.
                  Hi Abby,

                  The Telegraph account of the Phillip's testimony at the inquest doesn't mention "vertical gash to midsection" or "cut to the privates". Is there another source that refers to these injuries? I agree that the hiked up skirt is an indication. Perhaps I should have phrased my comment as, if McKenzie was a JtR victim he was varying his M.O./ Signature.

                  Cheers, George​
                  “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                  “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Fiver View Post

                    Is there anything that shows the scratches in the McKenzie case were fingernail scratches or is that just the other poster's opinion?

                    It was Dr. Phillip's opinion after he examined, and re-examined, the body. See the account of the inquest testimony.
                    https://www.casebook.org/official_do...mackenzie.html
                    “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                    “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                      It was Dr. Phillip's opinion after he examined, and re-examined, the body. See the account of the inquest testimony.
                      https://www.casebook.org/official_do...mackenzie.html
                      Thank you. I had read that before, but missed the scratches.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                        Skirt hiked up to expose midsection (MO) This is a bigee for me and final straw IMHO that she was a ripper victim.
                        I've seen this before and just don't see why it is such a bigee. This, as with the other factors with Mackenzie, are so general that anyone could have done it. I mean, if someone wanted to get at her midsection/privates then they's have to pull her skirts up. I don't buy the fingernails stuff. None of it adds up and sounds like trying to make a case where there isn't one. Jtr doesn't attack for months, then comes back scratching and with other differences, and then goes where? Sick, asylum, lost mind, whilst could be true smack of an easy way out/trying to find a convenient explanation.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by GBinOz View Post

                          Hi Abby,

                          The Telegraph account of the Phillip's testimony at the inquest doesn't mention "vertical gash to midsection" or "cut to the privates". Is there another source that refers to these injuries? I agree that the hiked up skirt is an indication. Perhaps I should have phrased my comment as, if McKenzie was a JtR victim he was varying his M.O./ Signature.

                          Cheers, George​
                          yes
                          casebook victims section on McKenzie:
                          • Cause of death from severance of the left carotid artery.
                          • Two stabs in the left side of the neck 'carried forward in the same skin wound.'
                          • Some bruising on chest.
                          • Five bruises or marks on left side of abdomen.
                          • Cut was made from left to right, apparently while McKenzie was on the ground.
                          • A long (seven-inch) 'but not unduly deep' wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel.
                          • Seven or eight scratches beginning at the navel and pointing toward the genitalia.
                          • Small cut across the mons veneris.
                          "Is all that we see or seem
                          but a dream within a dream?"

                          -Edgar Allan Poe


                          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                          -Frederick G. Abberline

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                            yes
                            casebook victims section on McKenzie:
                            • Cause of death from severance of the left carotid artery.
                            • Two stabs in the left side of the neck 'carried forward in the same skin wound.'
                            • Some bruising on chest.
                            • Five bruises or marks on left side of abdomen.
                            • Cut was made from left to right, apparently while McKenzie was on the ground.
                            • A long (seven-inch) 'but not unduly deep' wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel.
                            • Seven or eight scratches beginning at the navel and pointing toward the genitalia.
                            • Small cut across the mons veneris.
                            Hi Abby,

                            The inquest report was from the Times rather than the Telegraph. I have searched other news reports and there is nowhere mentioned the boldened cuts shown above. Unfortunately the casebook victims section on McKenzie doesn't give a reference for that information. Curious.

                            Cheers, George
                            “Contrariwise,” continued Tweedledee, “if it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be but as it isn’t, it ain’t. That’s logic.”

                            “Oh, you can't help that,” said the Cat: “we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.” “How do you know I'm mad?” said Alice. “You must be,” said the Cat, or you wouldn't have come here.”

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Aethelwulf View Post

                              I've seen this before and just don't see why it is such a bigee. This, as with the other factors with Mackenzie, are so general that anyone could have done it. I mean, if someone wanted to get at her midsection/privates then they's have to pull her skirts up. I don't buy the fingernails stuff. None of it adds up and sounds like trying to make a case where there isn't one. Jtr doesn't attack for months, then comes back scratching and with other differences, and then goes where? Sick, asylum, lost mind, whilst could be true smack of an easy way out/trying to find a convenient explanation.
                              Hi wulf
                              Its signifcant because other ripper victims also had their skirts hiked up. Its significant because its exposing the part of the body that the ripper liked to target.
                              The fingernail scratches is different I concede that, but again, its on the area of the body the ripper liked to target. theres also enough other similarities to the other victims that IMHO she was probably a ripper victim. where did he go after that? I think he might have had one last victim in the pinchin torso, and then who knows??But I would venture if he wasnt one of the named suspects he moved away, stopped for other personal reasons, or was arrested for another offence. Dying, being sick or "lost mind" is rarely a cause for serial killers to stop altogether, so I doubt any of those were the reasons.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Dying, being sick or "lost mind" is rarely a cause for serial killers to stop altogether, so I doubt any of those were the reasons.

                                Hello Abby,

                                I think I would disagree with dying. It tends to make you stop.

                                c.d.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X