Robert Paul

[Hair Bear]

There is no reason to suspect Lechmere of one series of murders, let alone two.

Thanks for your input, Harry (and everyone else who has kindly responded to this thread). Whilst like yourself I do believe Cross innocent, I approach the Ripper and indeed all mysteries with an attitude of " I suspect no one and everyone", so feel Cross has to be eyed with suspicion. He and anyone else who was remotely close to the killings (Paul, Mizen etc) needs to be fully investigated – irrespective of whether they appear to be innocent or guilty, or whether that investigation goes on to prove guilt or innocence. I'm pretty sure you will agree with me when I say we need to be open minded.

the real authority on Lechmere is Edward Stow

If you are reading this, Edward, thank you for your excellent input.

The Ripper and the Thames torso killer are one and the same man.

Can you supply me with a link that gives all details, please? Thanks.

Nobody knows when Kelly was killed

When two independent witnesses say they heard “Oh, murder” at around 4am, I think that that gives a good indication. Do you believe that Hutchinson saw Kelly with the Ripper?

(Why did Paul lie about entering Buck's Row at 4:45am, and why did he lie about being late?) He did neither, as far as I´m concerned. And we cannot be sure that he started at 4 o´clock sharp that day - maybe he had been told to arrive ten minutes earlier for some reason, we have no idea.

You tell us that Cross lied about saying a policeman was present on the strength of Mizen’s testimony. If you are to believe Mizen here, then you must also believe him when he says Paul and Cross spoke to him at 3:45 - you can’t pick and choose when to believe someone’s testimony. You could argue that Mizen has his time wrong (although by the same token, you can argue that he recalled incorrectly that a policeman needed him). However, we know that PC Thain testified to being called for help at 3:45 by Neil. When coupling their evidence, Paul’s testimony, that he entered Buck’s Row at 3:45, is plain wrong. So when we couple that with his telling us he is behind time, I smell a rat (whether that means he is the Ripper or simply has his times wrong is a different matter). After all, it is Paul, not Cross, who first says that he is behind time and didn’t want to wait around, preferring to find a cop en route. As such, we can therefore conclude that if anyone didn’t want to be taken back to the scene of the crime it is Paul!

Knowing more about Paul would help, hence my asking if anyone had more information on him. If you know of any, no matter how trivial, please let me have the link, thanks.

Other thoughts...
I know that Cross doesn’t fit too well the description given by the one witness I believe got the Ripper bang on, PC Smith. He says the man was twenty eight (oddly, closer to Paul’s age than Cross).

If you are to believe that Cross was the killer, then I assume you do not believe the Ripper wrote the Dear Boss letter, since the respective author's handwriting is (completely) different.

[Harry D]

And yes, lech is a good fit for the ripper/torso man.

Absurd.

There is no reason to suspect Lechmere of one series of murders, let alone two.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Hair bear

first welcome.

second just to add about the point fish made about the ripper and torso man being the same.

As recently as a couple of years ago, you would have been harangued off the boards if you even brought up the mere possibility.

thankfully, that seems to be changing and I for one now lean toward them being the same man.

It is basically the same sig, victomology, time and place and the way specifically that several victims in both series had there abdomans cut open and the flaps of skin removed is uncanny.

Fish and researcher extraordinaire Deb Arif are really the experts on this and can highlight many many more similarities of the two.

I have been urging both to write books-fish on Lech as the suspect and also Debra on the torso killings and/or the similarities between the two. I look forward to buying both if they ever do.


And yes, lech is a good fit for the ripper/torso man. as his age (among other things) as fish points out correctly meshes quite nicely.

my favored suspect for ripper and or ripper/torso man is Aussie George Hutch-at least for some of the torso killings, but that's also controversial idea and off topic here so perhaps for another thread.

again welcome

[Harry D]

Keep up the scepticism, Hair Bear. Nice to see you haven't fallen afoul of the half-truths and sophistry that prop-up the case for Lechmere.

[Fisherman]

Hair Bear: In that case, I should perhaps take this opportunity to congratulate you on your research and your most interesting documentary. Although I don't believe Cross is the Ripper, I concede that as an obvious suspect (arguably the prime one) he may well be, and therefore should be investigated to the fullest.

Thank you! I must tell you that the research is only partly mine - the real authority on Lechmere is Edward Stow, with whom I have cooperated about the Lechmere material. He does not post out here nowadays, however.


A fair assumption, although not a conclusive one, and I would say that even if it was Cross who refused to lift her, that doesn't point to his guilt - I'm pretty sure that I would also refuse to move her! As to why Paul offered to move her: if we are going to use speculation, then we could argue that he either banked on Cross' refusal or else didn't care, since ultimately their testimonies would point to Cross having been there first.

Lechmere had no problems touching her, though, feeling for warmth. And he instigated the examination, so I find it odd that he did not want to follow it up properly. To help the woman to sit up would have been the expected thing to do. All in all, Lechmere is always the one behaving oddly.
For some reason. Or another.

Yes, he could, but then again had Cross been the Ripper he could himself have chosen a couple of different options to the one he did. The choices people make aren't necessarily always the most logical, especially when under pressure.

True - so we must leave that one open. But Lechmere is the one swopping names, and he is the one who has the killings occur on his rote to work, plus he is the one who seemingly lied to Mizen about an extre PC. Paul does not have that rap sheet.


Sorry, I'm either missing a joke or a point here. Either way, it makes no sense to investigate only Cross, when we know that Paul, Neal, Mizen and Thain, among others, were in the area and therefore any one of them could, even as an outside chance, be the Ripper. As such, surely you see the sense in investigating fully each individual? You never know, after all.

This is it: The Ripper and the Thames torso killer are one and the same man. The person who killed Mary Kelly in November of 1888, was almost certainly the same man who killed the 1873 torso victim at Battersea.
Paul was 16 then. Kosminsi was 8, Chapman was 8...
Lechmere was 24.

It´s a point, it is not a joke.

Now that I have you here, some other points:

I might have this wrong but in the documentary I think you said that Cross didn't work Saturdays. If he starts work at 4am why would he be killing Kelly at 4am?

Nobody knows when Kelly was killed, but she was killed on a working day. A few people had the day off since it was Lordmayor´s day, but most peiple had to work.

Much was also made of the fact that Paul didn't see any blood and therefore the killing must have only just taken place, bearing in mind only a few minutes later Neal saw blood - but you failed to mention that Neal only saw the blood by use of his light, which Paul didn't have.

The idea was Andy Griffiths´. I think it is a fair one; even if it was dark, the carmen saw the body from the other side of the street, they saw the bonnet etcetera - bending down over the neck, checking for breath, it would be reasonable to see the pool of blood too - if it was there. Also, PC Mizen says that the blood was "still running" and partly coagulated as he saw the body. That would have been at least 5-6 minutes after she was cut, and Jason Payne-James (the medico in the docu) says that a few minutes would be the bleeding out time with the damage she had. He thought that three minutes or perhaps five would be a better suggestion than seven. So there you are.

Why did Paul lie about entering Buck's Row at 4:45am, and why did he lie about being late?

He did neither, as far as I´m concerned. And we cannot be sure that he started at 4 o´clock sharp that day - maybe he had been told to arrive ten minutes earlier for some reason, we have no idea.

What faintest difference would it make if Cross did or didn't tell Mizen that he was wanted by a policeman?

I will try to talk you through it!
1. If Lechmere spoke of another PC, then he lied.
2. One must assume that he had a reason for lying in that case.
3. If Mizen was informed that the carman was the finder of the body, and had been alone with it, he would not let Lechmere go. He would detain him and have him searched, and he would take him back to the murder spot, awaiting assistance.
4. The murder spot was searched intensely for the murder weapon, but it was not found. The conclusion must be that Lechmere - if the killer, of course - carried it with himself out of Bucks Row. And with Paul accompanying him, he could not throw it away, so it would be on his person when searched.

In conclusion, if Lechmere was the killer, he needed to get past the police without being searched. Can you think of any other way to do it, than the ruse that was seemingly used?

Neither can I.

If Lechmere lied about the extra PC, it applies that he was in all probability the killer of Polly Nichols.

[Hair Bear]

I should perhaps inform you that I am actually Holmgren

In that case, I should perhaps take this opportunity to congratulate you on your research and your most interesting documentary. Although I don't believe Cross is the Ripper, I concede that as an obvious suspect (arguably the prime one) he may well be, and therefore should be investigated to the fullest.

That depends on which paper you read. According to the Telegraph, 4th Sept, it was Paul who refused.

[B]Yes, I know. That is the one and only paper that has it that way, which is why I suggest they simply got it wrong.

A fair assumption, although not a conclusive one, and I would say that even if it was Cross who refused to lift her, that doesn't point to his guilt - I'm pretty sure that I would also refuse to move her! As to why Paul offered to move her: if we are going to use speculation, then we could argue that he either banked on Cross' refusal or else didn't care, since ultimately their testimonies would point to Cross having been there first.

Now, how would Paul pin anything on Lechmere by waiting for him to arrive? Lechmere could easily have said goodby and gone off, could he not?

Yes, he could, but then again had Cross been the Ripper he could himself have chosen a couple of different options to the one he did. The choices people make aren't necessarily always the most logical, especially when under pressure.

Right. So let´s eliminate Paul. He would have been merely 16 in 1873 anyway...

Sorry, I'm either missing a joke or a point here. Either way, it makes no sense to investigate only Cross, when we know that Paul, Neal, Mizen and Thain, among others, were in the area and therefore any one of them could, even as an outside chance, be the Ripper. As such, surely you see the sense in investigating fully each individual? You never know, after all.

Now that I have you here, some other points:

I might have this wrong but in the documentary I think you said that Cross didn't work Saturdays. If he starts work at 4am why would he be killing Kelly at 4am?

Much was also made of the fact that Paul didn't see any blood and therefore the killing must have only just taken place, bearing in mind only a few minutes later Neal saw blood - but you failed to mention that Neal only saw the blood by use of his light, which Paul didn't have.

Why did Paul lie about entering Buck's Row at 4:45am, and why did he lie about being late?

What faintest difference would it make if Cross did or didn't tell Mizen that he was wanted by a policeman?

Thanks in advance, Christer.

[Pierre]

Hair Bear: Other than the patently obvious one of pinning it on Cross, I have no idea - much the same as I have no idea why, if Cross killed Nichol's, he, Cross, didn't simply walk on or else sneak off down Winthrop or Court Street (which is what the real killer probably did). Remember that Holmgren's theory tells us that Cross heard Paul coming from the moment Paul enters Buck's Row, which would give Cross loads of time to make his escape. So perhaps you can explain why Cross made the dumb decision to remain with the body?

I should perhaps inform you that I am actually Holmgren
Now, how would Paul pin anything on Lechmere by waiting for him to arrive? Lechmere could easily have said goodby and gone off, could he not?

As for why Lechmere stayed with the body, Andy Griffiths said in the docu that there was no way Lechmere would run, given the amount of PC:s and watchmen around. I tend to agree that it would be a dangerous thing to do. There is also the possibility that Lechmere was in a sort of bubble, cutting away at Nichols, and only heard Paul very late in the process.


That depends on which paper you read. According to the Telegraph, 4th Sept, it was Paul who refused.

Yes, I know. That is the one and only paper that has it that way, which is why I suggest they simply got it wrong.

As I said previously, I don't think either is the killer, but it isn't an "odd reason" why Paul keeps popping up and there's no reason to wonder why. It makes sense to eliminate any possible suspect, not just a prime one - not least because, as history has shown us, it isn't always the (Colin Stagg) prime suspect who did the dirty deed.

Right. So let´s eliminate Paul. He would have been merely 16 in 1873 anyway...

The fact that Paul was so close to Lechmere shows us that the street was frequented by carmen going to work in the early morning hours.

This fact is strongly correlated to finding a victim in the same street.

This fact clearly contradicts your theory about the finder of a victim being the killer of the victim.

[Fisherman]

Hair Bear: Other than the patently obvious one of pinning it on Cross, I have no idea - much the same as I have no idea why, if Cross killed Nichol's, he, Cross, didn't simply walk on or else sneak off down Winthrop or Court Street (which is what the real killer probably did). Remember that Holmgren's theory tells us that Cross heard Paul coming from the moment Paul enters Buck's Row, which would give Cross loads of time to make his escape. So perhaps you can explain why Cross made the dumb decision to remain with the body?

I should perhaps inform you that I am actually Holmgren
Now, how would Paul pin anything on Lechmere by waiting for him to arrive? Lechmere could easily have said goodby and gone off, could he not?

As for why Lechmere stayed with the body, Andy Griffiths said in the docu that there was no way Lechmere would run, given the amount of PC:s and watchmen around. I tend to agree that it would be a dangerous thing to do. There is also the possibility that Lechmere was in a sort of bubble, cutting away at Nichols, and only heard Paul very late in the process.


That depends on which paper you read. According to the Telegraph, 4th Sept, it was Paul who refused.

Yes, I know. That is the one and only paper that has it that way, which is why I suggest they simply got it wrong.

As I said previously, I don't think either is the killer, but it isn't an "odd reason" why Paul keeps popping up and there's no reason to wonder why. It makes sense to eliminate any possible suspect, not just a prime one - not least because, as history has shown us, it isn't always the (Colin Stagg) prime suspect who did the dirty deed.

Right. So let´s eliminate Paul. He would have been merely 16 in 1873 anyway...

[Hair Bear]

If Paul killed Nichols and then decided to hide in Bucks Row - why did he change that decision and step forward as Lechmere arrived? .

Other than the patently obvious one of pinning it on Cross, I have no idea - much the same as I have no idea why, if Cross killed Nichol's, he, Cross, didn't simply walk on or else sneak off down Winthrop or Court Street (which is what the real killer probably did). Remember that Holmgren's theory tells us that Cross heard Paul coming from the moment Paul enters Buck's Row, which would give Cross loads of time to make his escape. So perhaps you can explain why Cross made the dumb decision to remain with the body?

If Paul killed Nichols, why did he suggest they should prop her up, when he must have known that it would give away what had happened? .

That depends on which paper you read. According to the Telegraph, 4th Sept, it was Paul who refused.

The suggestion that Paul was the killer keeps popping up fr some odd reason. One wonders why, when Lechmere fits the bill so much better.

As I said previously, I don't think either is the killer, but it isn't an "odd reason" why Paul keeps popping up and there's no reason to wonder why. It makes sense to eliminate any possible suspect, not just a prime one - not least because, as history has shown us, it isn't always the (Colin Stagg) prime suspect who did the dirty deed.

[Fisherman]

Apologies if I'm posting this in the wrong section, but I'd like to know if anyone has done any extensive research into Robert Paul?

It seems strange to me that many have leapt on to the "Charles Cross was the Ripper" bandwagon without once ever questioning Robert Paul's possible involvement. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe either Paul or Cross is the Ripper (not least, in Cross' case, because I'm swayed by a belief that you wouldn't say you thought you were looking at a tarpaulin unless that's actually what happened), but why assume Cross lied and not Paul? If Paul were the Ripper, it wouldn't be too difficult to hide in the shadows until an unsuspecting Cross passed by, then pop up as the innocent walking behind - remember in Holmgren's documentary that Cross doesn't hear Paul until he's close by, when, according to Holmgren, you would hear the footsteps long beforehand. It also strikes me as odd that nobody has questioned extensively Paul's timing. PC Neal finds to body at 3:45, Thain says he is contacted by a body-finding Neal at 3:45, Mizen says he talks to Paul & Cross at 3:45, yet Paul claims to have entered Buck's Row at 3:45. Paul must have been there well in advance of that time. And remember, it's Paul who tells Cross he doesn't want to wait for a policeman. He says the reason for this is because he's late, but since this isn't yet 3:45, and since his place of work is only 12 mins walk away, then he isn't late.

If Paul killed Nichols and then decided to hide in Bucks Row - why did he change that decision and step forward as Lechmere arrived?

If Paul killed Nichols, why did he suggest they should prop her up, when he must have known that it would give away what had happened?

The suggestion that Paul was the killer keeps popping up fr some odd reason. One wonders why, when Lechmere fits the bill so much better.

[Hair Bear]

Apologies if I'm posting this in the wrong section, but I'd like to know if anyone has done any extensive research into Robert Paul?

It seems strange to me that many have leapt on to the "Charles Cross was the Ripper" bandwagon without once ever questioning Robert Paul's possible involvement. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe either Paul or Cross is the Ripper (not least, in Cross' case, because I'm swayed by a belief that you wouldn't say you thought you were looking at a tarpaulin unless that's actually what happened), but why assume Cross lied and not Paul? If Paul were the Ripper, it wouldn't be too difficult to hide in the shadows until an unsuspecting Cross passed by, then pop up as the innocent walking behind - remember in Holmgren's documentary that Cross doesn't hear Paul until he's close by, when, according to Holmgren, you would hear the footsteps long beforehand. It also strikes me as odd that nobody has questioned extensively Paul's timing. PC Neal finds to body at 3:45, Thain says he is contacted by a body-finding Neal at 3:45, Mizen says he talks to Paul & Cross at 3:45, yet Paul claims to have entered Buck's Row at 3:45. Paul must have been there well in advance of that time. And remember, it's Paul who tells Cross he doesn't want to wait for a policeman. He says the reason for this is because he's late, but since this isn't yet 3:45, and since his place of work is only 12 mins walk away, then he isn't late.