Robert Paul

[Fisherman]

So, Hair Bear, I am Harry are very alike...?

Genealogists tell me that arabs and jews are very alike too.

We share an interest in the Ripper case, but we do not share the idea that evidence and how we treat it is all-important.

Actually, Mizen cannot have been approached by the carmen in at the same time Neil found Nichols. Itīs a question of distances, mainly. Neil would have come onto Bucks Row from Thomas Street. From where the streets joined up, he had three times as long a stretch down to the body as Lechmere and Paul had from the junction of Bucks Row and Bakers Row down to Mizen. And Neil would have been walking at a slow beat pace, whereas the carmen were both hurring onm being late.
The carmen will have passed the junction before Neil came into Bucks Row, otherwise the PC would have noticed them, and he said afterwards that he had seen or heard nobody; the streets were totally empty according to him.

So if we have the carmen past the junction when Neil enters Bucks Row, then they had less than a minutes walk to Mizen, more like 30-45 seconds. And Nail had around 2-3 minuteīs walk down to the body.

Overall, though, Neil, Mizen and Thain may all have had their timings roughly correct. But we can see that they cannot all have been exactly correct. And the only person who nails the time exactly - or claims to do so - is Robert Paul in the paper interview: "It was exactly 3.45..."

What possible reason could he have had for saying "exactly" if he had no real idea? Then again, it can be reasoned that he may have looked at a clock that was incorrect. But overall, when we put the pieces together, I think we need to accept that pushing the time Paul found Lechmere standing close to Nichols dead body towards 3.40 works a lot worse than pushing it towards 3.50. And that has to do with a weighing of all the matters involved.

Anything more? Ah, the hats! No, I donīt think that a deerstalker will be mistaken for a peaked cap, unless it is only seen from the front!

[Hair Bear]

[QUOTE=Fisherman;396851]
As I say, this is not all. There is another matter to add too, but I am keeping it under wraps for now.
You tease! But hey, thanks for all the info, good stuff.

As I said, either Mizen or Neil is wrong
Why is one or the other wrong? Mizen said he spoke to Cross & Paul at 3:45. That would surely tie in with Neil finding Nichols at 3:45

I donīt smell a rat at all. I smell a carman who had reason to be oriented about the time since he was late, and I smell consistent testimony on his behalf. But we all have differing smelling sense...
Yes, we do ...but LOL!!!

People with multiple personalitites can have totally different handwriting styles, making the connection undetectable to any graphologist, so I would not bank on such a thing. However, I do not think that the Ripper wrote any of the letters, although I keen an open mind on a few of them. The Dear Boss letter is not one of them.
Glad you said "Can". In my initial year at senior school, at the end of the first term I took a rollocking off the head of English for using no less than 24 different styles of writing :-)

[Hair Bear]

Okay. Myself, I tend to see the man from the earlier pub visit, Schwartzīs man and Marshalls man as possibly the same man, but I am in now way certain. As I remember it, Smiths man deviated by wearing a deerstalker, by carrying a parcel, by being taller and by being older than Schwartzīs man. And of course, by being differently dressed than Lawendes sailor. So to me, itīs all very shaky and inconclusive.
But you are of course entitled to your hunch - we all have them and cherish them...!

Smith's: 5ft 7-8. Age 28. Small dark tash. Deerstalker. Black Coat. Parcel (important that).

Schwartz: 5ft 5. Age 30. Small brown tash. Peaked cap (lost in translation, he might have meant a deerstalker - your thoughts?). Dark jacket.

Hutchinson: 5ft 6. Age 34-5. Slight tash. Long dark coat. Parcel (parcel again!)

Mrs Long: A little taller than the woman (so 5ft 5 to 5ft 8). Brown deerstalker hat. Dark coat. She says he's over 40 but, crucially, she didn't see his face only his back.

To me, these people are all describing the same man - a shortarse who is in his late 20s to mid 30s and who wears a dark coat and hat.

Cross's appearance: Swaddling cloth, height 6ft 11 LOL

[Hair Bear]

FAO Harry/Fisherman...

Guys - you have no need to argue. Having read all of your posts there is a clear similarity between you, in that you have intelligence, knowledge, and (the very thing that is causing some friction here) oodles of passion. These are all excellent traits, especially when we consider that these are the very things needed to help us achieve what is after all a common goal - to unearth the Ripper. Indeed, a love for the mystery of the Ripper is yet another similarity between you. Now then, at this moment in time I don't believe Cross was the Ripper (in fact, I don't believe any single person ever mentioned is the Ripper, not least Paul). However, I concede that that doesn't make me right, and so I am more than happy for someone, in this case Christer, to continue unearthing (fascinating) facts about a person who, after all, is a worthy suspect. By a similar token, however, I'm saddened when I hear that it isn't worth unearthing any facts about Paul. Let's face it, even if he isn't the Ripper, wouldn't it be interesting to know more about someone who is a player in this greatest of all 'plays', who has touched hands with history? To that end, rather than insist that "The Ripper IS such and such" or insist that "The Ripper ISN'T such and such", let's just work together by obtaining as many facts as possible about ALL the characters thrown up by the Whitechapel murders. There is no harm in disagreeing about theories, but there is harm in falling out over it. Yes, the Ripper might well be Cross/Lechmere, and yes, the Ripper might well not be Cross/Lechmere. Surely that makes sense? So, come on, do the right thing, shake hands and let's all remain open minded.

[Hair Bear]

PC Long? Are you talking about William Smith? And did he not speak of a deerstalker hat?

Argh, thanks. Yeah, Smith.

[Fisherman]

yes I do

Okay. Myself, I tend to see the man from the earlier pub visit, Schwartzīs man and Marshalls man as possibly the same man, but I am in now way certain. As I remember it, Smiths man deviated by wearing a deerstalker, by carrying a parcel, by being taller and by being older than Schwartzīs man. And of course, by being differently dressed than Lawendes sailor. So to me, itīs all very shaky and inconclusive.
But you are of course entitled to your hunch - we all have them and cherish them...!

[Abby Normal]

Why would he, of all the "suspects", be the killer? Do you think he is the same man that was mentioned by Lawende, Marshall and Schwartz; BS man?

yes I do

[Fisherman]

my bad yes. PC long. and yes he did speak of a dear stalker hat. it a hat with a peak-well two of course I have to admit. but close enough IMHO.

Why would he, of all the "suspects", be the killer? Do you think he is the same man that was mentioned by Lawende, Marshall and Schwartz; BS man?

[Fisherman]

Harry D: Of course it does. Hair Bear is asking all the right questions when investigating Lechmere instead of swallowing the half-truths hook, line and sinker.

Once again, you cannot tell what is true or not. Let alone what is half-true. We donīt have the solution, and so we canīt tell.

Followed you, around? Look back through the numerous Lechmere threads and they will testify that you are the one who cannot leave me alone.

I have a bad habit of answering your abuse and chronical unsubstantiated attacks, but that does not change the order of things. Just like this time over, you are reguarly the one butting in and misinforming. Much like John Wheat. Quite a couple, you two! I can see the attraction.


I could bounce that question straight back at you. Why do you feel the need to wade in and proselytize when anyone shows the slightest scepticism towards Lechmere? If you felt that confident about him as the Ripper, you would let your work speak for itself.

Two things may have accidentally slipped your attention here, Harry:

1. I am being asked questions by Hair Bear. Of course, I could answer them by telling him to go away, but I find it more useful to give the factual answers instead.
2. The Lechmere theory is my theory. It is not just mine, but I am the one out here representing it. Of course, many people with theories will jump at the opportunity not to have them aired (after all, thatīs why theories are formed), but I belong to the timy fraction of people who think differently.

The Lechmere theory is not YOUR theory, however, so maybe we can put the two points I made together and tell you to go away? No?

[Abby Normal]

PC Long? Are you talking about William Smith? And did he not speak of a deerstalker hat?

my bad yes. PC long. and yes he did speak of a dear stalker hat. it a hat with a peak-well two of course I have to admit. but close enough IMHO.

[Harry D]

When you say that you know that Hair Bear "is on the right track", that has nothing to do with a critical mindset. The reason - once again - being that you have no idea which is the right track. It is a thing that none of us can prove.

Of course it does. Hair Bear is asking all the right questions when investigating Lechmere instead of swallowing the half-truths hook, line and sinker.

All you manage to prove is that you have decided to follow me around on the net and shout "Heīs wrong!"

Followed you, around? Look back through the numerous Lechmere threads and they will testify that you are the one who cannot leave me alone.

If the Lechmere theory is so lousy, why not let people decide that for themselves? Isnīt it a rather measly life, to travel round the net like a witless parrot?

I could bounce that question straight back at you. Why do you feel the need to wade in and proselytize when anyone shows the slightest scepticism towards Lechmere? If you felt that confident about him as the Ripper, you would let your work speak for itself.

[Fisherman]

HI HB
RIP Gene Wilder indeed!

I too think PC Long probably saw the ripper. He describes a man with a peaked cap the night of the double event as does other witnesses: Schwartz, marshall, lawende and the anon church street witness.
these witnesses and their veracity also made an impression on Abberline-see my sig below.

PC Long? Are you talking about William Smith? And did he not speak of a deerstalker hat?

[Abby Normal]

Harry D: I agree about Cross' name. You would hardly supply your first and middle name, and your place of work and actual address, if you are hoping to avoid detection/further investigation! That the name Cross was given to 'Lechmere' as a child, one can only imagine that that was the name he preferred to go by (I know at least two people who have from being a child always used their middle name as their first). I also agree that Cross' unblemished record doesn't sound like what I would expect of the Ripper. And as one character in 12 Angry Men says "I just don't think he would go back for the knife", the very first thing that made me feel Cross was innocent was the fact that he said he thought he was looking at a tarpaulin. I know it's only a gut feeling, but you just wouldn't come up with that unless that is what happened.

Abby Normal (RIP Gene Wilder!): PC Long's description I value most because he is trained to do exactly that. The fact that other descriptions echo his, only makes me assume the Ripper was younger than Cross - I do concede that he may well be 38ish. Being a decade out is possible, if not very probable. As for why Paul would double back, who knows, maybe the package he kept his knife in was left thirty yards back up the road (another 'not very probable but certainly possible'). As I said, I don't think Paul is the killer, but my thinking he isn't doesn't necessarily make me right.

HI HB
RIP Gene Wilder indeed!

I too think PC Long probably saw the ripper. He describes a man with a peaked cap the night of the double event as does other witnesses: Schwartz, marshall, lawende and the anon church street witness.
these witnesses and their veracity also made an impression on Abberline-see my sig below.

[Fisherman]

By the way, Harry, since you predispose that I am always wrong, how about giving me your informed view on the shared identity of the two killers. Letīs put your knowledge to the test, instead of allowing you to throw uninformed manure. Howīs that?

[Fisherman]

Yes, Fisherman, I advocate that everyone approaches Lechmere with a critical mindset, just like any other suspect put forward. I can see why you might have a problem with that in this case.

When you say that you know that Hair Bear "is on the right track", that has nothing to do with a critical mindset. The reason - once again - being that you have no idea which is the right track. It is a thing that none of us can prove.

All you manage to prove is that you have decided to follow me around on the net and shout "Heīs wrong!". Strictly speaking, itīs not a bad thing, since it shows you for what you are and for the level of knowledge you represent. But overall, itīs of course trolling and nothing else, incidentally an area where you excel.

If the Lechmere theory is so lousy, why not let people decide that for themselves? Isnīt it a rather measly life, to travel round the net like a witless parrot?