Surgical expertise, anatomical knowledge. So on and so forth..

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

How do you know whether or not Stride's killer wanted to mutilate her?

And for about the ten millionth time something could have spooked her killer for which there would be NO EVIDENCE.

c.d.

I know that my position on this kind of thing bugs you cd, but I don't think its relevant to consider any scenarios that are not indicated by the physical evidence. For example, we might ponder whether Liz Stride was killed by a gang, or whether someone entered and exited without leaving a trace, but that's just killing time. In the case of Liz Stride her throat was cut once, not twice, and she was "lain gently down", where she remained untouched. This may have occurred between 12:46 and 12:56, based on a guesstimate by Blackwell. Maybe as early as 12:30, by Phillips. Considering the estimated time the killer has with Kate, and with Annie, it seems the evidence in the Stride case allowed for a whole range of desecrations to have taken place.

But she wasn't even turned onto her back. A signature.

[Jeff Leahy]

But she wasn't even turned onto her back. A signature.

But surely thats a catch twenty two... She wasn't on her back because the attacker didn't have time or didn't feel comfortable proceeding...

Perhaps it was to close to home?

Perhaps Stride regained consciousness and drew into a featus position?

What you can't deny is that whoever killed Stride could easily have made Whitechurch lane around 1.25 am. Crossed Whitechapel Road and headed towards Aldgate station... Met Eddows and be standing talking to her in Church Passage at 1.35 am.

What are the odds of two murders so close together and the time frame allowing for one to the other?

Pretty small i would suggest

Yours Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

But surely thats a catch twenty two... She wasn't on her back because the attacker didn't have time or didn't feel comfortable proceeding...

So, now we have Dymshitz's arrival not only compromising the throat-cut, but also spooking the Ripper so much that he'd only managed to turn his victim 90º before he chickened out completely

[Jeff Leahy]

So, now we have Dymshitz's arrival not only compromising the throat-cut, but also spooking the Ripper so much that he'd only managed to turn his victim 90º before he chickened out completely

Hi Sam

But that would assume that Diemscutz disturbed the killer, which seems most unlikely for a number of reasons... Where as Schwartz disturbing the killer matches Blackwell's estamate of time of death...while allowing plenty of time for the killer to also meet Eddows.

And what is the probability of two murders that easily allow for that to happen?

Yours Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

And what is the probability of two murders that easily allow for that to happen?

I worked it out a while back, Jeff. It's of the order of tens of thousands to one, given the climate/culture of the rough East End and its population density at the time. Probabilities of 10,000s to 1 sound like long odds, but they're not really. It's of the same order as getting 5 numbers plus the Bonus Ball in the National Lottery (before they added the extra numbers!), and people used to win that regularly - indeed, having more than one winner in the same draw was not uncommon.

[Jeff Leahy]

I worked it out a while back, Jeff. It's of the order of tens of thousands to one, given the climate/culture of the rough East End and its population density at the time. Probabilities of 10,000s to 1 sound like long odds, but they're not really. It's of the same order as getting 5 numbers plus the Bonus Ball in the National Lottery (before they added the extra numbers!), and people used to win that regularly - indeed, having more than one winner in the same draw was not uncommon.

Yeah but then how many times has such an event happened to the present day, apart from the Sally Anne Bowman murder (And that was the same guy) Woman with their throats cut are few and far between, as were such murders at the time.

So it simply seems more probable that the same person killed both women.

Not to say impossible that they were by different people just improbable

Yours Jeff

[Sam Flynn]

Yeah but then how many times has such an event happened to the present day

The present day is not like the overcrowded, crime-ridden slums of the 1880s, and thankfully hasn't been for the best part of a century. That's partly down to the social improvements brought about in response to Jack the Ripper and his fellow knife-wielding miscreants, all of whom were more prevalent in the Late Victorian East End.

So it simply seems more probable that the same person killed both women.

It may seem more probable, but it's nowhere near as "more probable" as we might think.

[c.d.]

If Stride's killer was Jack and something did in fact spook him so that he fled before mutilating her body, it needn't be Diemschutz's arrival on the scene. It must have occurred to him that killing her so close to the club where there were a number of people was risky. The desire for another victim could have overridden that fear. If something spooked him (and it could have been anything) he might have simply ducked back into the yard and waited. Hearing Diemschutz approach he might have decided that this was a bad business and fled.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this scenario is correct, if whatever spooked him occurred right at the time he was in the act of killing Stride and that is the time he ducked into the yard, then we have a possible explanation why no mutilation occurred even though it would seem that he had the requisite amount of time. Also, if what spooked him was the sound of a door opening or a change in the volume of the singing or hearing voices there would be no evidence for that. The same holds true if his paranoia simply got the better of him for no particular reason. There would be no evidence that that is what took place.

Stride was not the only woman in Whitechapel. If he were to be caught he would be hanged. Important things to keep in mind.

We can't conclude with absolute certainty that no mutilation means her killer was not Jack. An interruption is a reasonable explanation that doesn't require the presence of aliens, supernatural forces or a violation of the laws of physics. It happens all the time.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

If Stride's killer was Jack and something did in fact spook him so that he fled before mutilating her body, it needn't be Diemschutz's arrival on the scene. It must have occurred to him that killing her so close to the club where there were a number of people was risky. The desire for another victim could have overridden that fear. If something spooked him (and it could have been anything) he might have simply ducked back into the yard and waited. Hearing Diemschutz approach he might have decided that this was a bad business and fled.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this scenario is correct, if whatever spooked him occurred right at the time he was in the act of killing Stride and that is the time he ducked into the yard, then we have a possible explanation why no mutilation occurred even though it would seem that he had the requisite amount of time. Also, if what spooked him was the sound of a door opening or a change in the volume of the singing or hearing voices there would be no evidence for that. The same holds true if his paranoia simply got the better of him for no particular reason. There would be no evidence that that is what took place.

Stride was not the only woman in Whitechapel. If he were to be caught he would be hanged. Important things to keep in mind.

We can't conclude with absolute certainty that no mutilation means her killer was not Jack. An interruption is a reasonable explanation that doesn't require the presence of aliens, supernatural forces or a violation of the laws of physics. It happens all the time.

c.d.

Bingo. Add in the probable Schwartz interruption and there is any number of reasons the ripper may have spooked before he mutilated stride.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Sam.
Probably not. However, I never even considered before that the ripper didn't have some kind of medical experience. But because of arguments by posters like you Hunter and others I realize it is a possibility now

Hi Sam
The discussion on the Pranzini thread has nudged me closer to the possibility that the ripper had no official medical training.

[Jeff Leahy]

The present day is not like the overcrowded, crime-ridden slums of the 1880s, and thankfully hasn't been for the best part of a century. That's partly down to the social improvements brought about in response to Jack the Ripper and his fellow knife-wielding miscreants, all of whom were more prevalent in the Late Victorian East End.It may seem more probable, but it's nowhere near as "more probable" as we might think.

Yeah but undiscovered murders in London were rare... and according to Anderson the Jack the Ripper crimes were NOT within that category?

Yours Jeff

[Joshua Rogan]

If something spooked him (and it could have been anything) he might have simply ducked back into the yard and waited.

I don't have a problem with the killer getting spooked and running, but I'm not sure ducking further into the yard would have been his best bet.

This is what the Daily Telegraph 2nd Oct reports Louis as saying;

"When you entered the yard, if any person had run out you would have seen them in the dark? - Oh, yes, it was light enough for that. It was dark in the gateway, but not so dark further in the yard."

[Sam Flynn]

Yeah but undiscovered murders in London were rare...

They don't have to be undiscovered, Jeff, or even murders. Attempted murders, manslaughter and non-fatal assaults need to be considered, too. What happened to Liz needn't have been a premeditated murder, but a mugging gone horribly wrong.

[Michael W Richards]

But surely thats a catch twenty two... She wasn't on her back because the attacker didn't have time or didn't feel comfortable proceeding...

Perhaps it was to close to home?

Perhaps Stride regained consciousness and drew into a featus position?

What you can't deny is that whoever killed Stride could easily have made Whitechurch lane around 1.25 am. Crossed Whitechapel Road and headed towards Aldgate station... Met Eddows and be standing talking to her in Church Passage at 1.35 am.

What are the odds of two murders so close together and the time frame allowing for one to the other?

Pretty small i would suggest

Yours Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I suppose one could imagine a thousand reasons why Liz Stride wasn't mutilated, but I submit that there are none worth any salt unless there is some physical evidence to warrant such speculation.

Liz was cut once then left alone on her side..thats all we have, and that seems to suggest that what happened to Liz was all that was intended.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

If Stride's killer was Jack and something did in fact spook him so that he fled before mutilating her body, it needn't be Diemschutz's arrival on the scene. It must have occurred to him that killing her so close to the club where there were a number of people was risky. The desire for another victim could have overridden that fear. If something spooked him (and it could have been anything) he might have simply ducked back into the yard and waited. Hearing Diemschutz approach he might have decided that this was a bad business and fled.

Assuming for the sake of argument that this scenario is correct, if whatever spooked him occurred right at the time he was in the act of killing Stride and that is the time he ducked into the yard, then we have a possible explanation why no mutilation occurred even though it would seem that he had the requisite amount of time. Also, if what spooked him was the sound of a door opening or a change in the volume of the singing or hearing voices there would be no evidence for that. The same holds true if his paranoia simply got the better of him for no particular reason. There would be no evidence that that is what took place.

Stride was not the only woman in Whitechapel. If he were to be caught he would be hanged. Important things to keep in mind.

We can't conclude with absolute certainty that no mutilation means her killer was not Jack. An interruption is a reasonable explanation that doesn't require the presence of aliens, supernatural forces or a violation of the laws of physics. It happens all the time.

c.d.

You seem to believe that an interruption could not be detected if it existed, and that's patently incorrect. An interruption at the very second he was preparing to move to his next activity would still be visible in some form...manipulation of the clothing, change of body position after that single cut, which is critical here...she wasn't moved a hair...evidence of a hasty departure in the form of witness accounts, (Fanny Mortimer was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1am and she saw no-one, including Louis's arrival supposedly at 1am)....etc.

Again, for the umpteenth time, there is as much evidence that Liz Stride was killed by Bigfoot as there is for an interruption.

An example of logical supposition would be that Mary Kelly was killed by someone she knew, based on the location, the dress of the victim, and the fact that we know she was seeing more than just Joe Barnett.