The Whitehall Mystery

[John G]

Hi John,

Why do you keep quoting me to post about how JTR and The Torso Killer were different people? I have never made the claim they were the same.

All I have attempted to do is post the facts of what the autopsy stated and then noticed similarities between it and the other torso victims and some of JTRs. My original post on the Pinchin St Torso was simply to point out that people seemed to have forgotten that she also had abdominal and vaginal mutilation.

Please keep in mind, I don't have a Ripper suspect I believe in and I'm not even sure which victims can be counted in his number. To me it is of the utmost interest that in this same relative timeframe, in this same relative area (London), there appears to possibly be another serial killer who demonstrates through his victims some of the same traits shown in some of the alleged Ripper Victims.

Are there differences as well? Quite clearly there are. Should we ignore the facts of these torsos and pretend they are so different from Kelly they couldn't have been committed by the same hand? To what benefit is that?

To me this seems like one of the last few areas that people haven't throughly explored. Isn't it of the most extreme importance that we kick over every stone to see if there is any possible link at all to JTR since this could lead to additional understanding and knowledge in the overall case?

Hello Dane,

I'm confused. When have I ever suggested that you believe the torso killer and JtR were the same? In fact, I said your post was well thought out and reasoned, which it was. In fact, how could I disagree with it, because you were essentially just outlining the facts, and you clearly made some valid points. In fact, I think it was one of the best and most objectively reasoned posts on the thread. I think, therefore, you must be confusing me with someone else! I was simply replying to your post, addressed to me, outlining my own views and interpretation of the evidence., which you may or not agree with. However, if you don't want me to reply to you in future I won't do so.

[Dane_F]

Hi Abby,

But you have to consider motive. It does appear that the mutilations inflicted by the torso killer were simply for purposes of efficient dismemberment, not so JtR. As for the missing organs, only one uterus was missing from the torso victims, and could have been lost during disposal. And no kidneys were missing. I believe Liz Jackson's lungs were also missing. Seriously? You think a serial killer intent on collecting trophies would elect to retain the lungs?

Hey John,

Just to correct some of your statements here.

First you state it as matter of fact that the mutilations inflicted by the torso killer were simply for purposes of efficient dismemberment. This is inaccurate. The only thing in this regard we have are people's opinion on the matter.

We don't even know which mutilations they were referring to because they don't specify. Could Dr. Phillips simply have been referring to the much larger mutilations of missing heads and limbs?

Does anyone have any Medical Expert they can ask this specific question: Would making a cut through the skin and muscle from near the neck down through the pubes into the vagina and out then not removing any organs aid in speeding up the dismemberment at all?

I have talked to my cousin who has been a paramedic for over 20 years and now teaches a class to students training to be a paramedic. I have also talked to my brother-in-law who is a Registered Nurse and has worked in the emergency room trama center for over 5 years. Neither of them could see a way that making a long gash through a torso and then not removing any organs would speed up dismemberment at all. If someone could consult a doctor that would be of great benefit. I however am willing to bet any amount of money that their answer will be the same.

As far only one uterus was missing, let's also keep in mind that a heart and part of the intestines were missing as well in the case of Jackson.

[Dane_F]

Hello Dane,

I'm confused. When have I ever suggested that you believe the torso killer and JtR were the same? In fact, I said your post was well thought out and reasoned, which it was. In fact, how could I disagree with it, because you were essentially just outlining the facts, and you clearly made some valid points. In fact, I think it was one of the best and most objectively reasoned posts on the thread. I think, therefore, you must be confusing me with someone else! I was simply replying to your post, addressed to me, outlining my own views and interpretation of the evidence., which you may or not agree with. However, if you don't want me to reply to you in future I won't do so.

There was certainly some confusion going around as it seemed to me like you were making a rebuttal to my post and then going on to argue about the differences between JTR and the Torso Killer. If that wasn't your intention I apologize, it was a misunderstanding and lead to the confusion.

[John G]

There was certainly some confusion going around as it seemed to me like you were making a rebuttal to my post and then going on to argue about the differences between JTR and the Torso Killer. If that wasn't your intention I apologize, it was a misunderstanding and lead to the confusion.

No problem Dane, I actually think you made some valid points.

[John G]

Hey John,

Just to correct some of your statements here.

First you state it as matter of fact that the mutilations inflicted by the torso killer were simply for purposes of efficient dismemberment. This is inaccurate. The only thing in this regard we have are people's opinion on the matter.

We don't even know which mutilations they were referring to because they don't specify. Could Dr. Phillips simply have been referring to the much larger mutilations of missing heads and limbs?

Does anyone have any Medical Expert they can ask this specific question: Would making a cut through the skin and muscle from near the neck down through the pubes into the vagina and out then not removing any organs aid in speeding up the dismemberment at all?

I have talked to my cousin who has been a paramedic for over 20 years and now teaches a class to students training to be a paramedic. I have also talked to my brother-in-law who is a Registered Nurse and has worked in the emergency room trama center for over 5 years. Neither of them could see a way that making a long gash through a torso and then not removing any organs would speed up dismemberment at all. If someone could consult a doctor that would be of great benefit. I however am willing to bet any amount of money that their answer will be the same.

As far only one uterus was missing, let's also keep in mind that a heart and part of the intestines were missing as well in the case of Jackson.

Hello Dane,

I think, as regards, the Pinchin Torso, I would agree that the gash is hard to explain. In fact, it clearly puzzled Commissioner Monro, who concluded that it was intended to simulate the Whitechapel murders.

[Dane_F]

I'm sorry to make another post So soon but I've just stumbled across a line of reasoning I haven't seen mentioned at all, well, basically anywhere and I need everyone's assistance in answering the question:

Has anyone been able to discover any signs that any of the torso victims were raped? Has any semen been noticed on any of the victims?

To me this is a very interesting thought. We would now have two killers, both operating at the same general time, in the same general area, targeting prostitues as victims, these victims demonstrating some of the same traits between both sets, and then the very curious point of both killers having an opportunity to have sex with/rape a large number of the victims and yet choosing not to.

I however, haven't looked at all the information and might be missing something.

I will say this - If others can help answer that none of the torso victims appeared to have had sex around time of death - this might be the biggest link yet between the possibility that JTR was involved in these torso cases. I am willing to overlook a large number of things as coincidences but two people targeting prostitutes in the same period of time, in the same general area, killing them and mutilating them, in some cases removing organs, cutting into the vagina in others, and yet neither one has sex with any of the victims? That seems EXTREMELY unlikely for two people to both demonstrate.

[John G]

Regarding experts. Dr Biggs, a forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, considered both the Torso and Whitechapel murders. He concluded that they were unlikely to be the same killer, given the "vastly different" MO. In fact, he said that the Torso victims could have been committed by different killers, or may not have been murdered.

[Paddy]

Out of interest, did the police ever take pictures or sketches of the Torso victims?
Pat....

[Abby Normal]

I'm sorry to make another post So soon but I've just stumbled across a line of reasoning I haven't seen mentioned at all, well, basically anywhere and I need everyone's assistance in answering the question:

Has anyone been able to discover any signs that any of the torso victims were raped? Has any semen been noticed on any of the victims?

To me this is a very interesting thought. We would now have two killers, both operating at the same general time, in the same general area, targeting prostitues as victims, these victims demonstrating some of the same traits between both sets, and then the very curious point of both killers having an opportunity to have sex with/rape a large number of the victims and yet choosing not to.

I however, haven't looked at all the information and might be missing something.

I will say this - If others can help answer that none of the torso victims appeared to have had sex around time of death - this might be the biggest link yet between the possibility that JTR was involved in these torso cases. I am willing to overlook a large number of things as coincidences but two people targeting prostitutes in the same period of time, in the same general area, killing them and mutilating them, in some cases removing organs, cutting into the vagina in others, and yet neither one has sex with any of the victims? That seems EXTREMELY unlikely for two people to both demonstrate.

Hi Dane Great point!
I don't believe any of the torsos had evidence of sexual contact immediate to time of death and would think that that may be difficult to ascertain.

But I'll leave your question up to more knowledgeable folks on here like Debra.

But your right, the not having sex with/raping would add another BIG similarity.

[Abby Normal]

Hi John,

Why do you keep quoting me to post about how JTR and The Torso Killer were different people? I have never made the claim they were the same.

All I have attempted to do is post the facts of what the autopsy stated and then noticed similarities between it and the other torso victims and some of JTRs. My original post on the Pinchin St Torso was simply to point out that people seemed to have forgotten that she also had abdominal and vaginal mutilation.

Please keep in mind, I don't have a Ripper suspect I believe in and I'm not even sure which victims can be counted in his number. To me it is of the utmost interest that in this same relative timeframe, in this same relative area (London), there appears to possibly be another serial killer who demonstrates through his victims some of the same traits shown in some of the alleged Ripper Victims.

Are there differences as well? Quite clearly there are. Should we ignore the facts of these torsos and pretend they are so different from Kelly they couldn't have been committed by the same hand? To what benefit is that?

To me this seems like one of the last few areas that people haven't throughly explored. Isn't it of the most extreme importance that we kick over every stone to see if there is any possible link at all to JTR since this could lead to additional understanding and knowledge in the overall case?

I totally agree with this post!
How ironic would it be if more understanding of the ripper case, or even helping ID the ripper was to come about through the torso case!!!

Another reason why I ask if there has been any more work done on the Board of Works connection?? there seemed to be some very interesting links a few posts back.

[Abby Normal]

Hey John,

Just to correct some of your statements here.

First you state it as matter of fact that the mutilations inflicted by the torso killer were simply for purposes of efficient dismemberment. This is inaccurate. The only thing in this regard we have are people's opinion on the matter.

We don't even know which mutilations they were referring to because they don't specify. Could Dr. Phillips simply have been referring to the much larger mutilations of missing heads and limbs?

Does anyone have any Medical Expert they can ask this specific question: Would making a cut through the skin and muscle from near the neck down through the pubes into the vagina and out then not removing any organs aid in speeding up the dismemberment at all?

I have talked to my cousin who has been a paramedic for over 20 years and now teaches a class to students training to be a paramedic. I have also talked to my brother-in-law who is a Registered Nurse and has worked in the emergency room trama center for over 5 years. Neither of them could see a way that making a long gash through a torso and then not removing any organs would speed up dismemberment at all. If someone could consult a doctor that would be of great benefit. I however am willing to bet any amount of money that their answer will be the same.

As far only one uterus was missing, let's also keep in mind that a heart and part of the intestines were missing as well in the case of Jackson.

Given this, the similarity of the way flaps of skin were removed and that she was known prostitute (and IDed, unlike the rest of the torsos and like the ripper victims) are making me lean towrd the idea that That Jackson and Kelly were killed by the same hand.

[John Wheat]

I'm sorry to make another post So soon but I've just stumbled across a line of reasoning I haven't seen mentioned at all, well, basically anywhere and I need everyone's assistance in answering the question:

Has anyone been able to discover any signs that any of the torso victims were raped? Has any semen been noticed on any of the victims?

To me this is a very interesting thought. We would now have two killers, both operating at the same general time, in the same general area, targeting prostitues as victims, these victims demonstrating some of the same traits between both sets, and then the very curious point of both killers having an opportunity to have sex with/rape a large number of the victims and yet choosing not to.

I however, haven't looked at all the information and might be missing something.

I will say this - If others can help answer that none of the torso victims appeared to have had sex around time of death - this might be the biggest link yet between the possibility that JTR was involved in these torso cases. I am willing to overlook a large number of things as coincidences but two people targeting prostitutes in the same period of time, in the same general area, killing them and mutilating them, in some cases removing organs, cutting into the vagina in others, and yet neither one has sex with any of the victims? That seems EXTREMELY unlikely for two people to both demonstrate.

To Dane

I think we simply don't know as regards having sex with the prostitutes. But even if it was proved The Torso Killer didn't have intercourse with the prostitutes the possibility still remains that The Torso Killer performed sex acts with the heads.

Cheers John

[jerryd]

Met Board of Works

I totally agree with this post!
How ironic would it be if more understanding of the ripper case, or even helping ID the ripper was to come about through the torso case!!!

Another reason why I ask if there has been any more work done on the Board of Works connection?? there seemed to be some very interesting links a few posts back.

Hi Abby,

I started a thread on the other forum months back here. http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....ht=stinky+jack

Below is an 1878 map of London to give you reference of where the Board of Works meeting place (red arrow) and the location of the Whitehall torso at National Opera house (blue arrow) were. The yellow arrow is the Carlton Club. I threw that in because Francis Tumblety said he was a member of that club. There was also reference to the Carlton Club in William Wallace Brodie's 1877 larceny trial. I don't attach much meaning to it at this point but saw it on the map and wanted to point it out.

At the bottom of the map you can see the tail end of Cannon Row which was mentioned as a possible entrance to the vault. It is my opinion that the Metropolitan Board of Works would have over-seen the construction of the new police building. They oversaw the construction of the National Opera house.

[Abby Normal]

To Dane

I think we simply don't know as regards having sex with the prostitutes. But even if it was proved The Torso Killer didn't have intercourse with the prostitutes the possibility still remains that The Torso Killer performed sex acts with the heads.

Cheers John

agree. and the ripper probably used the organs for same.

[Observer]

Yes your obviously both world class experts! As I've said before, I'm extremely impressed by how many posters choose to ignore the medical experts, respected crimonologists, and authors such as Stewart Evans, who have been researching these cases for years, as they are obviously far more knowledgeable.

However, just out of interest, perhaps Rocky and yourself would care to cite your relevant qualifications, so that posters can then make an objective decision on how much weight they should give to your opinions.

John, I dont give a monkeys on how much weight posters should give to my opinions. I'm far from being an expert in this field of "Ripperology", and have never professed to be one. For the record I do not put much weight on you opinions


The thing is you constantly ignore posters who you believe not to be experts, posters like Dane and Debora. Debora Arif (and I don't really want to bring Debora into this,) by her own admission has spent 10 years researching the Torso Murders, she has pointed out to you on a number of occasions that Liz Jackson's genitalia was mutilated.

Debora wrote

"Elizabeth Jackson-The flaps of skin and subcutaneous tissue consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons veneris the left labium majus, and labium minus The right piece included the rest of the mons veneris, the right labium majus and minus[in other word the external organs of generation], and part of the skin of the right buttock"

Being blunt the individual who dismembered Liz Jackson cut her doodah out. Now if the process of dismemberment was carried out as a means of easier disposal of the body, why the hell did he cut out this section of the body? There was no need to. Cutting that section out made dispersal a little harder, it had to be wrapped separately.

You wrote

"As for the Pinchin Torso being intended to parody or simulate the Whitechapel crimes: that was also the view of James Monro. Mind you, what did he know: he was only the police commissioner at the time!"

Blind faith in the experts again? I asked you some time ago if the Pinchin Street Torso were a parody of the Chapman murder why did the individual choose to dump the body parts in Pinchin Street, near to the Liz Stride site, and not close to the Chapman site. I did not receive an answer. Also, are we to believe that the "murderer" of the Pinchin Street "victim" was murdered to order? That is the "murderer" purposely sought out a victim on the anniversary of the Chapman murder, and killed and dumped her to "parody" the anniversary of Chapmans murder? Fantasy indeed, in my opinion.