The Whitehall Mystery

[jerryd]

Any thoughts about the Harriett Buswell murder as a possible link...? It is an interesting case, I feel.

I haven't convinced myself yet that this/these killer/killers go back to the 1870's, yet. I don't know a lot about the case, but there are a lot of similarities to the ripper murders, I remember.

[jerryd]

There was a manhole with sewer access next to the vault with the torso? Very fascinating...debs do you remember where you found this info?

Jerry, do you know if Messr Grover was a member of the board of works?

I don't know, but here is a quote from the Opera house link I provided earlier.

Meanwhile Mapleson had at least been granted an extension by the Metropolitan Board of Works in June for the construction of his Theatre up until its proposed opening on March the 25th 1877 and a further extension of six months for the Theatre's entire completion, with the consideration that the land rent had been paid up to the present time. However, by April 1877 work had entirely stopped on the Theatre due to lack of funds and the time allotted by the Metropolitan Board of Works for fitting the roof to the Theatre had expired.


With that in mind, I assume the Metropolitan Board of Works had some control over the builders of Scotland Yard, namely Messrs. J. Grover and Sons.

[jerryd]

As much as I have come to love your work, Jerry-I can't agree with this, there doesn't seem to be any evidence to support this, especially in 3 of the cases 87-89.. and the 'exotic' woman with the rose tattoo died a death when it was revealed to be a plain old stain from red tape.

Debs,

For some reason I had in my mind the torso victims were thought to be of a higher class than the east end victims. I must be wrong there. I do remember you pointing out the wrong id on the tattoo and that it was red tape.

[Fisherman]

I haven't convinced myself yet that this/these killer/killers go back to the 1870's, yet. I don't know a lot about the case, but there are a lot of similarities to the ripper murders, I remember.

There are. And of course, you can read me like an open book - Charles Lechmere was born in 1849...

[Debra A]

Debs,

For some reason I had in my mind the torso victims were thought to be of a higher class than the east end victims. I must be wrong there. I do remember you pointing out the wrong id on the tattoo and that it was red tape.

Jerry, is it because Mei Trow is an excellent and also apparently very influential writer?!

[jerryd]

Rocky,

I found this piece on J. Grover.

John Grover 1835 - 3rd October 1913

John Grover was a London builder whose work had included the building of New Scotland Yard, 1888/90, and buildings in Chelsea. He purchased land in Tower Road Hindhead in the late 19th century and built a house there named Heather Bank. He later provided a permanent centre for Congregational worship. In 1895 he commenced the building of Hindhead Hall and in 1901 added a Church and Manse. In the early part of the 20th century, he provided a Free Church at both Hammer and Beacon Hill. All of the buildings were described as being built in the “XIVth. century domestic” manner and, it is believed, were designed by the renowned architect Norman Shaw.

John Grover was known as the greatest benefactor to the Congregational Church in the area.

His wife Sarah, who died in December 1913 aged 85yrs. is also buried in the same plot.

I also found John Grover as a representative of the CENTRAL ASSOCIATION OF MASTER BUILDERS OF LONDON. George Lusk was a Master Builder so I think we could assume they must have known each other somehow through that connection. Not sure if that means anything yet, but ya never know.

[jerryd]

Jerry, is it because Mei Trow is an excellent and also apparently very influential writer?!

I think you're better, how's that?!

[Fisherman]

I think you're better, how's that?!

She´s infinitely better, Jerry...! I would avoid any comparisons as such

[Abby Normal]

She´s infinitely better, Jerry...! I would avoid any comparisons as such

I don't know if hes a good writer but as a researcher, documentary maker and theorist hes not very good, IMHO

[jerryd]

I think Debs knows how much respect I have for her work.

[Fisherman]

I think Debs knows how much respect I have for her work.

I´m sure she´s got that covered too, Jerry!

[RockySullivan]

Mr. Thomas Bond: I am a surgeon, and reside at the Sanctuary, Westminster Abbey. On Oct. 2, shortly before four o’clock, I was called to the new police buildings, where I was shown the decomposed trunk of a body. It was then lying in the basement partially unwrapped. I visited the place where it had been discovered, and found that the wall against which it had lain was stained black. The parcel seemed to have been there for several days, and it was taken to the mortuary that evening, and the remains placed in spirits. On the following morning, assisted by my colleague, I made an examination. The trunk was that of a woman of considerable stature and well nourished. The head had been separated from the trunk by means of a saw. The lower limbs and the pelvis had been removed in the same way. The length of the trunk was 17 inches, and the circumference of the chest 35˝ inches and the waist 28˝ inches. The parts were decomposed , and we could not discover any wounds. The breasts were large and prominent. The arms had been removed at the shoulder joints by several incisions, the cuts having apparently been made obliquely from above downwards, and then around the arm. Over the body were clearly defined marks, where string had been tied. It appeared to have been wrapped up in a very skilful manner. We did not find marks indicating that the woman had borne any children. On opening the chest we found that the rib cartilages were not ossified, that one lung was healthy, but that the left lung showed signs of severe pleurisy. The substance of the heart was healthy, and there were indications that the woman had not died either of suffocation or of drowning. The liver and stomach, kidneys and spleen were normal. The uterus was absent. There were indications that the woman was of mature age - twenty-four or twenty-five years. She would have been large and well nourished, with fair skin and dark hair. The date of death would have been from six weeks to two months, and the decomposition occurred in the air, not the water. I subsequently examined the arm brought to the mortuary. It was the arm of a woman, and accurately fitted to the trunk; and the general contour of the arm corresponded to that of the body. The fingers were long and taper, and the nails well shaped; and the hand was quite that of a person not used to manual labour.
[Coroner]Was there anything to indicate the cause of death? - Nothing whatever.
[Coroner]Could you tell whether death was sudden or lingering? - All I can say is that death was not by suffocation or drowning. Most likely it was from haemorrhage or fainting.
[Coroner]Can you give any indication of the probable height of the woman? - From our measurements we believed the height to have been 5ft 8in. That opinion depends more upon the measurements of the arm than those of the trunk itself.
[Coroner]Was the woman stout? - Not very stout, but thoroughly plump; fully developed, but not abnormally fat. The inference is that she was a tall, big woman. The hand was long, and was the hand of a woman not accustomed to manual labour.
[Coroner]Did the hand show any sign of refinement? - I do not know that a hand of that kind is always associated with any refinement of mind or body, but certainly it was a refined hand.

-

How is it that more wasn't made of the missing uterus? Why wouldn't the police investigate a connection to the concurrent murders where the uterus was being taken from women? It is highly unlikely two separate killers were murdering woman and removing the uterus and surely scotland yard must have been aware of this. In all probability, it would make sense if they were aware of the connection and kept it hush.

Were there ever any persons of interest in torso cases? The only person it would seem would be John Arnold and possibly the worker who was questioned about being at whitehall on his day off.

[John G]

How do you know the uterus was purposefully removed? It might have simply been lost, I.e during transportation of the body or the dismemberment process. How do you know JtR intentionally targeted the uterus? That's just speculation. Scotland Yard were clearly of the opinion that the Torso murderer and JtR were different killers; hardly surprising considering they had different MOs and signature.

[RockySullivan]

How do you know the uterus was purposefully removed? It might have simply been lost, I.e during transportation of the body or the dismemberment process. How do you know JtR intentionally targeted the uterus? That's just speculation. Scotland Yard were clearly of the opinion that the Torso murderer and JtR were different killers; hardly surprising considering they had different MOs and signature.

John, i think you take you the phrase "loose woman" too literally and in any case there is nothing to indicate the whitehall torso was that of a prostitute. Unless of course you consider the case of Elizabeth Jackson, who had resorted to prostitution and indeed had her uterus removed and disposed of in the thames. Are we to believe that Chapman, Eddowes and Jackson all had their uterus removed by the killer and yet the whitehall victim's was simply lost? From what I can tell this is the only organ noted to be missing. No doubt another coincidence of course.

Abby did a great job in detailing the similarities between the torso killer and the ripper's signature. Yes the method of disposal differed, as it did between the torso victims and between ripper victims like Nichol's and Kelly.

[John Wheat]

How do you know the uterus was purposefully removed? It might have simply been lost, I.e during transportation of the body or the dismemberment process. How do you know JtR intentionally targeted the uterus? That's just speculation. Scotland Yard were clearly of the opinion that the Torso murderer and JtR were different killers; hardly surprising considering they had different MOs and signature.

Well I'm with Scotland Yard and John G. The Torso Killer and JTR were very different killers; there's zero evidence they were one and the same.