The Whitehall Mystery

[RockySullivan]

see post 613 last para

Your response makes no sense considering the whitehall vault was ALWAYS pitch black no matter what time of day it was. And according to the doctors the torso was in the vault for weeks...not that this has any relevance in regard to the question of WHY it was there.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, if these murders were all botched abortions by a backalley doctor, and not a willful serial killer, why on earth would he intentionally leave a piece of the body in the vault at New Scotland Yard of all places?

I think you need to expand on the term botched abortions and incorporate other related operations connected to childbirth.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Your response makes no sense considering the whitehall vault was ALWAYS pitch black no matter what time of day it was. And according to the doctors the torso was in the vault for weeks...not that this has any relevance in regard to the question of WHY it was there.

Surely you can answer your own question, someone wanted to dispose of the parts does it matter whether they were in the thames or in this vault.

With regards to the vault we do not have any pictures of this location so the term vault may be a false perception by us as to what it was like.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

Not in 1888, they didn't have to many methods of transportation in those days. So the need for a quick and easy disposal would have been paramount.

Why would someone travel halfway across London when there would have been easier places of disposal near to where any murder took place. Again it doesnt fit. Why are you so fixated with a serial killer when you know that homicide cannot be conclusively proved?

There is no direct evidence to show when the body parts were deposited next to your drunken witnesses. Alleyways and archways and alcoves all look very different in the dark to what the look like in daylight. So to look at a dump site in daylight one might ask why on earth did he dump the remains here, but in the dead of night they all look different.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

There would have been transport options, such as a pony and cart. Even relatively poor individuals, such as Bury and Louis D had access to that form of transport. A boat is another possibility, at least for some of their disposals.

I believe the disposal sites were essentially chosen for shock value, and on account of the killer's warped sense of humour, I.e placing a torso inside the foundations of the police's own headquarters, disposing of Liz Jackson's torso in the garden of Sir Percy Shelly's home.

Pinchin Street was carefully chosen. Commissioner Monro suggested that the mutilations were possibly intended to simulate the Whitechapel murders, and the fact that she was probably killed on the anniversary of Chapman's death, and that the Torso was placed close to Berner Street, where Stride was murdered- and possibly by the same arches that Schwartz ran to- coupled with the "Lipski" graffiti, all suggests the killer intended to create a parody of the Whitechapel murders.

[RockySullivan]

Surely you can answer your own question, someone wanted to dispose of the parts does it matter whether they were in the thames or in this vault.

With regards to the vault we do not have any pictures of this location so the term vault may be a false perception by us as to what it was like.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You may want to read the whitehall inquest for a better understanding of the lowlight conditions of the vault. And yes it matters significantly whether they were in the thames or in the vault as there is a drastic difference between the two locations, one accessible all through london, another nearly impossible to gain entrance to or be familiar with the layout

[RockySullivan]

Pinchin Street was carefully chosen. Commissioner Monro suggested that the mutilations were possibly intended to simulate the Whitechapel murders, and the fact that she was probably killed on the anniversary of Chapman's death, and that the Torso was placed close to Berner Street, where Stride was murdered- and possibly by the same arches that Schwartz ran to- coupled with the "Lipski" graffiti, all suggests the killer intended to create a parody of the Whitechapel murders.

I dont understand what makes more it likely that all the connections indicate a parody rather than actual connection. Surely the simpler explanation is the same killer? Why overlook the simple explanation and jump to parody as the most likely conclusion?

[Fisherman]

I dont understand what makes more it likely that all the connections indicate a parody rather than actual connection. Surely the simpler explanation is the same killer? Why overlook the simple explanation and jump to parody as the most likely conclusion?

Sadly, neither explanation is "simple", given the inherent material. I do think, however, that the same killer is as good an explanation, if not better, as a parody.
However, John is making a viable point - if there was a theatralic element to the Whitehall killing as well as to the Jackson and Tottenham killings, then why would the killer not be able to stage a "Ripper" torso killing?

These are hard calls to make, we can only go by what we personally feel and think - and with any luck, our thoughts and feelings differ from those of the one/s responsible for these murders...

[John G]

Surely you can answer your own question, someone wanted to dispose of the parts does it matter whether they were in the thames or in this vault.

With regards to the vault we do not have any pictures of this location so the term vault may be a false perception by us as to what it was like.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But we have contemporary reports. For instance, a Times reporter suggested that the torso must have been left during the day time, because light was minimal, rather than at night, when light was non existent. And the site was so difficult to access it was suggested that the perpetrator possibly approached by boat.

And at the inquest one of the workmen, Windborn, explained that even in broad daylight a match would have been required to navigate the vault. The site foreman, William Brown stated at the inquest that he believed that only someone who had the site minutely described to him, or knew the site personally, could have located the vault, so difficult was it to find.

[John G]

I dont understand what makes more it likely that all the connections indicate a parody rather than actual connection. Surely the simpler explanation is the same killer? Why overlook the simple explanation and jump to parody as the most likely conclusion?

As I've said before, the torso killer and JtR had completely different MOs and signatures. And whilst a killer's signature can evolve, or become more elaborate, it makes no sense that he would be conforming to two completely different signatures during the same time frame.

Put simply, JtR was a less organized killer: he did not use dump sites, and made no attempt to hide the identity of his victims.

And, unlike the Torso killer, he obviously didn't have a warped sense of humour!

[RockySullivan]

Sadly, neither explanation is "simple", given the inherent material. I do think, however, that the same killer is as good an explanation, if not better, as a parody.
However, John is making a viable point - if there was a theatralic element to the Whitehall killing as well as to the Jackson and Tottenham killings, then why would the killer not be able to stage a "Ripper" torso killing?

These are hard calls to make, we can only go by what we personally feel and think - and with any luck, our thoughts and feelings differ from those of the one/s responsible for these murders...

I believe shock was a huge motivator for the killer. It's always possible that the torso killer was trying to copy or reference the ripper works but i see it as unlikely. With the whitehall vault was found newspaper clippings from aug 24, which was the date the tabram inquest verdict should have appeared in print. It seems to me the killer was trying maximize shock value by indicating a connection between the murders, something the police may have tried to hush up throughout the whitechapel murders. It could be that you have a killer who is following all the details of the ripper murders and trying to make it look like he is responsible for them to drum up fear, but what i see is a killer whose methods evolved to include ripping up women on the street, fast he gets the shock value he wants and he gets the organs he wants, for whatever reason...who knows

[Trevor Marriott]

But we have contemporary reports. For instance, a Times reporter suggested that the torso must have been left during the day time, because light was minimal, rather than at night, when light was non existent. And the site was so difficult to access, it was suggested that the perpetrator possibly approached by boat.

And at the inquest one of the workmen, Windborn, explained that even in broad daylight a match would have been required to navigate the vault. The site foreman, William Brown stated at the inquest that he believed that only someone who had the site minutely described to him, or knew the site personally, could have located the vault, so difficult was it to find.

Well somebody found it didnt they ? if it was that well hidden there couldn't have been to many suspects then could there?

So the Times reporter of the day was a crime investigator? how many times have we seen opinions given by reporters many of which are nothing more than guesswork and researchers getting sucked into them- Tumblety is a classic case

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[RockySullivan]

As I've said before, the torso killer and JtR had completely different MOs and signatures. And whilst a killer's signature can evolve, or become more elaborate, it makes no sense that he would be conforming to two completely different signatures during the same time frame.

Put simply, JtR was a less organized killer: he did not use dump sites, and made no attempt to hide the identity of his victims.

And, unlike the Torso killer, he obviously didn't have a warped sense of humour!

John, as has been said many times on the forum, the rippings could have been committed when the torso killer wasnt able to dismember.

JTR may have planned out his murders in between police beats, just the way the torso killer dumped.

He's sense of humor seems pretty warped and right in line with the torso killer....the way the ripper nicked the faces and such....

same guy

[John G]

Well somebody found it didnt they ? if it was that well hidden there couldn't have been to many suspects then could there?

So the Times reporter of the day was a crime investigator? how many times have we seen opinions given by reporters many of which are nothing more than guesswork and researchers getting sucked into them- Tumblety is a classic case

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I think he would have been able to work out how difficult it was to find the vault and how dark it was! And somehow I can't see a workman operating a sideline in back street abortions-unless he thought he was Dr Ripperstein! And if a workman was responsible, why did the police not identify any suspects?

[John G]

John, as has been said many times on the forum, the rippings could have been committed when the torso killer wasnt able to dismember.

JTR may have planned out his murders in between police beats, just the way the torso killer dumped.

He's sense of humor seems pretty warped and right in line with the torso killer....the way the ripper nicked the faces and such....

same guy

As I've indicated before I think that explanation is completely far-fetched, particularly as the torso murders took place over a much wider time frame. I mean, we would have to accept that he had no problem in finding a place to dismember with the earlier murders, and then in late 1888 he suddenly loses this facility, only to regain it again in 1889 (Jackson/Pinchin Street)! The mutilations were also fundamentally different between the Whitechapel murders and the Torso Murders-and that also applies to Pinchin Street- and surely that can't be related to whether he had a place to dismember or not. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Their objectives were also very different. As Donald Swanson pointed out, in respect of Pinchin Street: "What becomes most apparent is the absence of attack upon the genitals as in the series of Whitechapel murders beginning in Bucks Row and ending in Miller's Court."

And why wasn't Kelly dismembered, considering she was killed indoors and her killer probably had a considerable amount of time with the body?

[Harry D]

Trevor's shtick is to go against the grain and set himself up some kind of mythbuster. The C5 were committed by more than one killer, the organs weren't taken by the killer, the apron didn't belong to Eddowes, the Torso Murders weren't the work of a serial killer etc.