The Whitehall Mystery

[John G]

If they were socially disconnected, there will be a much larger chance that they are not reported.

Prostitutes are to a large extent socially disconnected.

Thatīs how I do the maths here.

But wouldn't most prostitutes be involved in prostitution only on a casual basis? Surely that's the case with the Whitechapel victims, all of whom had friends, family or partners who would have noticed if they'd gone missing.

[John Wheat]

But wouldn't most prostitutes be involved in prostitution only on a casual basis? Surely that's the case with the Whitechapel victims, all of whom had friends, family or partners who would have noticed if they'd gone missing.

Yes but without the heads in the case of the Torso Killer identification in the late 1800's would be extremely difficult.

[John G]

Yes but without the heads in the case of the Torso Killer identification in the late 1800's would be extremely difficult.

Yes, in this respect the Torso killer was clearly far more organized than JtR. However, surely difficulties with identification would apply whatever the social status of the victim. And I wonder how common it was for people to go missing. I mean, today 275000 Britains go missing every year, and they can't all be socially disconnected.

[RockySullivan]

Yes, in this respect the Torso killer was clearly far more organized than JtR. However, surely difficulties with identification would apply whatever the social status of the victim. And I wonder how common it was for people to go missing. I mean, today 275000 Britains go missing every year, and they can't all be socially disconnected.

Perhaps...or were the rippings a way the killer could get what he wanted without going through the dismemberment and disposal and yet not being connected to the victim

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps...or were the rippings a way the killer could get what he wanted without going through the dismemberment and disposal and yet not being connected to the victim

Bingo

[John G]

Perhaps...or were the rippings a way the killer could get what he wanted without going through the dismemberment and disposal and yet not being connected to the victim

A much simpler explanation is that JtR and the Torso murderer were different killers: Occam's razor.

[Mayerling]

Yes, in this respect the Torso killer was clearly far more organized than JtR. However, surely difficulties with identification would apply whatever the social status of the victim. And I wonder how common it was for people to go missing. I mean, today 275000 Britains go missing every year, and they can't all be socially disconnected.

There had been cases over the years where the head of a cut up corpse was recovered and identified, leading to finding the perpetrator(s), and eventually convicting them. In 1726 a Mr. Hayes was identified when his head was found and after it was identified it led to the arrest, trial, and conviction of Catherine Hayes and her associates in his murder. In 1836 the head of a woman was found in a canal near the Thames, and identified by the dead woman's brother as Hannah Brown, who had just married a grocer named James Greenacre. Greenacre was captured while preparing to flee with his mistress, and eventually tried and convicted and hanged.

On the other hand, the 1857 Waterloo Bridge mystery, involving a cut up corpse of a murdered man, never was solved - the head was never found with the rest of the corpse.

Jeff

[John G]

There had been cases over the years where the head of a cut up corpse was recovered and identified, leading to finding the perpetrator(s), and eventually convicting them. In 1726 a Mr. Hayes was identified when his head was found and after it was identified it led to the arrest, trial, and conviction of Catherine Hayes and her associates in his murder. In 1836 the head of a woman was found in a canal near the Thames, and identified by the dead woman's brother as Hannah Brown, who had just married a grocer named James Greenacre. Greenacre was captured while preparing to flee with his mistress, and eventually tried and convicted and hanged.

On the other hand, the 1857 Waterloo Bridge mystery, involving a cut up corpse of a murdered man, never was solved - the head was never found with the rest of the corpse.

Jeff

Hello Jeff,

Thanks for the information; this clearly highlights the risk of allowing the head of a dismembered corpse to be discovered. I believe that the Torso killer retained the head to prevent identification of the victim, and possibly as a trophy.

[Fisherman]

But wouldn't most prostitutes be involved in prostitution only on a casual basis? Surely that's the case with the Whitechapel victims, all of whom had friends, family or partners who would have noticed if they'd gone missing.

I think there were a good number of both types, John. And I think that many of the casual prostitutes were on a sloping surface when it came to social connections. They were women who had lived orderly lives, but who had taken to a much more transient lifestyle that would have separated them from their former lives to a smaller or lesser degree. Speaking on a generalized level, their disappearance would cause much less fuss than the disappearance of any woman with a fixed societal place, if you will.

[Debra A]

On the other hand, the 1857 Waterloo Bridge mystery, involving a cut up corpse of a murdered man, never was solved - the head was never found with the rest of the corpse.

Jeff

Interestingly, this is another case that Robert Anderson would write in later years had been solved, and that he knew the murderers and motive. He linked it to foreign gangland activity IIRC.

Edit because I looked it up:
It was written in the book 'Unsolved murder mysteries'. London, 1924 Charles E Pearce that a member of the French Secret Police told Anderson that the victim was an Italian spy.

[RockySullivan]

A much simpler explanation is that JtR and the Torso murderer were different killers: Occam's razor.

I don't agree john, two killer removing uteri is unlikely. And the glaring similarities with the pinchin torso and stride murder

Serial murders before the ripper in London in the 1800s? All of a sudden TWO men pop up and start myrdering prostitutes and both go for the uterus? Incredibly un likely

[John G]

I don't agree john, two killer removing uteri is unlikely. And the glaring similarities with the pinchin torso and stride murder

Serial murders before the ripper in London in the 1800s? All of a sudden TWO men pop up and start myrdering prostitutes and both go for the uterus? Incredibly un likely

I would have thought there would have Bern far more than two serial killers in London in the 1800s. There is no similarity between Stride and the Pinchin Street Torso, apart from geographical location. The Torso killer's abdominal mutilations/ incisions differed from JtR. We cannot possibly know that either JtR or Torso intended to remove the uterus or what the motive was.

[RockySullivan]

I would have thought there would have Bern far more than two serial killers in London in the 1800s. There is no similarity between Stride and the Pinchin Street Torso, apart from geographical location. The Torso killer's abdominal mutilations/ incisions differed from JtR. We cannot possibly know that either JtR or Torso intended to remove the uterus or what the motive was.

It seems clear to me that the ripper intended to remove the uterus...that's why he took it with him. Unless you believe he randomly sliced in the dark and luckily out popped a kidney or a uterus? Clearly his intention was to do so. And same for the torso killer. There are similarities with the circumstances of the stride murder and the pinchin torso. Proximity, Schwartz railway arch, lipski. And the anniversary of chapman murder. There are too many similarities between the torso killer and the ripper that stretch beyond the explanation of simple coincidences

[RockySullivan]

Is there anything about September 8th that might indicate (if the torso/ripper are the same) why some one would commit a murder n the same day two years in a row? There may be something significant about that day...like the killer has off, some type of event that takes place, the killers wife or family is away

[John G]

It seems clear to me that the ripper intended to remove the uterus...that's why he took it with him. Unless you believe he randomly sliced in the dark and luckily out popped a kidney or a uterus? Clearly his intention was to do so. And same for the torso killer. There are similarities with the circumstances of the stride murder and the pinchin torso. Proximity, Schwartz railway arch, lipski. And the anniversary of chapman murder. There are too many similarities between the torso killer and the ripper that stretch beyond the explanation of simple coincidences

As I've argued before, the coincidences that you refer to can be explained if we regard the Pinchin Street Torso as a parody of the Whitechapel murders. She was also dismembered, unlike any of the C5, and killed elsewhere from where the body was found, unlike any of the C5. Dr Biggs, the forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, argues that that we do not know what a killer's intention may have been; Eddowes killer, for example, may have intended to remove different organs.