The Whitehall Mystery

[Harry D]

What if the killer only had limited access to private lodgings and the means to transport & dispose of the remains? Therefore, in between, he had to make do with operating on the streets of Whitechapel?

[John G]

Here's an interesting quote from Sir Melville Mcnaughton concerning the Pinchin Street Torso: "The stomach was split up by a cut, and the head and legs had been severed in a manner identical with that of the woman whose remains were discovered in the Thames, in Battersea Park, on the Chelsea embankment 4th June of the same year; and these murders had no connection whatever with the Whitechapel horrors. The Rainham Mystery in 1887, and the Whitehall Mystery...in 1888 were of a similar type to the Thames and Pinchin Street crimes."

It therefore seems that the police did believe that the Torso victims were murdered, and that the crimes were probably connected.

[RockySullivan]

Does anyone have a good explanation for why the pinchin torso was dumped in whitechapel under schwartz's arch on the anniversary of chapman's murder...with lipski graffito?

How much more of a connection to the ripper could this murder have? Don't you think the torso killer was trying to say..."Look it's me, i'm the ripper" ? Or do you believe he's simply alluding to the ripper murders? And why leave a clipping from the day Tabram's inquest verdict was printed?
These seem like obvious attempts by the torso killer to establish a link between himself and the ripper murders. If not how do you explain them? Many are so quick to dismiss a connection but no one has an explanation. And to say the pinchin murder was just a coincidence....i don't feel that is realistic at all.

[Fisherman]

Does anyone have a good explanation for why the pinchin torso was dumped in whitechapel under schwartz's arch on the anniversary of chapman's murder...with lipski graffito?

How much more of a connection to the ripper could this murder have? Don't you think the torso killer was trying to say..."Look it's me, i'm the ripper" ? Or do you believe he's simply alluding to the ripper murders? And why leave a clipping from the day Tabram's inquest verdict was printed?
These seem like obvious attempts by the torso killer to establish a link between himself and the ripper murders. If not how do you explain them? Many are so quick to dismiss a connection but no one has an explanation. And to say the pinchin murder was just a coincidence....i don't feel that is realistic at all.

If you take a look at how Chalres Lechmere is spoken of, you will see that people are prepared to accept an innumerable number of coincidences, Rocky. They are a very freespirited array of thinkers in that fashion.

[Abby Normal]

What if the killer only had limited access to private lodgings and the means to transport & dispose of the remains? Therefore, in between, he had to make do with operating on the streets of Whitechapel?

Hi harry
yes. that's what ive been saying all along.

[RockySullivan]

If you take a look at how Chalres Lechmere is spoken of, you will see that people are prepared to accept an innumerable number of coincidences, Rocky. They are a very freespirited array of thinkers in that fashion.

What coincidences with Lechmere? He lied about his name and his mother lived near pinchin? Look at Richardson, he lied about having a knife, his story contradicted the ME, he repeatedly changed his story, carried a knife in his pocket, sat out with the knife in his hand where a woman was cut up, his wet leather apron was in the yard, he was able to leave work to go see a dead body without knowing it was in his mothers yard, there's no mention of the basement being searched and he was viewed with suspicion at the inquest due to his lying. Richardson is very suspicious, much more so than Lechmere, if Lechmere's only crime is lying about his name, Richardson is left holding the knife.

[John G]

Does anyone have a good explanation for why the pinchin torso was dumped in whitechapel under schwartz's arch on the anniversary of chapman's murder...with lipski graffito?

How much more of a connection to the ripper could this murder have? Don't you think the torso killer was trying to say..."Look it's me, i'm the ripper" ? Or do you believe he's simply alluding to the ripper murders? And why leave a clipping from the day Tabram's inquest verdict was printed?
These seem like obvious attempts by the torso killer to establish a link between himself and the ripper murders. If not how do you explain them? Many are so quick to dismiss a connection but no one has an explanation. And to say the pinchin murder was just a coincidence....i don't feel that is realistic at all.

Hello Rocky,

I think it alluded to the Whitechapel murders. However, it was still consistent with the Torso Killers signature. Hence the decapitation and partial dismemberment. Importantly, as Swanson points out, there was an absence of trauma to the genitals, unlike the Whitechapel murders. I think this is a vital distinction, because this was clearly central to JtR's signature but not the Torso Murderer.

[RockySullivan]

Hello Rocky,

I think it alluded to the Whitechapel murders. However, it was still consistent with the Torso Killers signature. Hence the decapitation and partial dismemberment. Importantly, as Swanson points out, there was an absence of trauma to the genitals, unlike the Whitechapel murders. I think this is a vital distinction, because this was clearly central to JtR's signature but not the Torso Murderer.

But there was trauma the uterus was removed

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor, I'm intrigued by the way you have phrased the above. I note that you have also referred in this thread to "the myth that JTR was responsible for all the Whitechapel murders" (#94) and have said "it should be noted that not all of the Whitechapel victims were killed by the same hand" (#355).

By way of clarification, may I ask: is it your contention that the killer of Mary Jane Kelly was a different person from the individual (or individuals) who killed any or all of Polly Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes?

From my investigation I believe that there is every possibility that Kelly was not murdered by the same hand as the others and that her murder could have been made to look look like the work of another killer.

For the record the three that I believe could have been killed by the same hand and have the most similarities are Chapman, Eddowes and Nicholls.

I am sure you have your own views based on your own research, which I would be happy discuss with you.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[David Orsam]

From my investigation I believe that there is every possibility that Kelly was not murdered by the same hand as the others and that her murder could have been made to look look like the work of another killer.

For the record the three that I believe could have been killed by the same hand and have the most similarities are Chapman, Eddowes and Nicholls.

I am sure you have your own views based on your own research, which I would be happy discuss with you.

Thank you for answering me Trevor, that is very clear. I have, as they say, no further questions.

[John G]

But there was trauma the uterus was removed

Wasn't that via an abdominal incision?

[John G]

What if the killer only had limited access to private lodgings and the means to transport & dispose of the remains? Therefore, in between, he had to make do with operating on the streets of Whitechapel?

Hello Harry,

But that doesn't explain the differences in crime signature. For example, as Keppel (2005) point out, all of the C5 victims, except Stride, and Tabram were repeatedly stabbed in the genital area; this is an extremely rare signature characteristic, and is one of the reasons why JtR is labelled a lust murderer. But it is a factor that is completely abscent from the Torso victims, indicating that their killer was motivated by different factors. In fact, this important detail was commented on by the police at the time. Referring to the Pinchin Street Torso, Donald Swanson stated, "there was an absence of attack on genitals as in the series of Whitechapel murders."

And then, of course, we have MJK's murder. Here the murder took place in private surroundings, and the assailant did not seem to be under any time pressure. And yet Kelly was not decapitated and there was no attempt to dismember or remove the body.

Regarding a lack of transport. This still doesn't properly explain why all of the C5 murders plus Tabram took place exclusively in Whitechapel, whereas the Torso victims appeared to be selected from a much wider area.

[Debra A]

Hello Harry,

But that doesn't explain the differences in crime signature. For example, as Keppel (2005) point out, all of the C5 victims, except Stride, and Tabram were repeatedly stabbed in the genital area; this is an extremely rare signature characteristic, and is one of the reasons why JtR is labelled a lust murderer. But it is a factor that is completely abscent from the Torso victims, indicating that their killer was motivated by different factors. In fact, this important detail was commented on by the police at the time. Referring to the Pinchin Street Torso, Donald Swanson stated, "there was an absence of attack on genitals as in the series of Whitechapel murders."

Hi John
That's a very interesting point that I hadn't considered before.
A few years back there were discussions about the flaps of abdominal skin removed from Annie Chapman and Mary Jane Kelly and some suggested this may have been part of JTR's signature. That Elizabeth Jackson also had these flaps of skin removed has always been a puzzle to me because of those discussions.

[martin wilson]

Hi John G

The post mortem evidence may support your idea that the PST was killed on the anniversary of Anne Chapman's murder.
I was surprised to find how close it was.

M.J.Clarke surgeon said 'I should think the body had been dead at least 24 hours'

Rigor mortis was not present and putrefaction had just commenced.
Obviously there are variations, but rigor mortis typically leaves a body within 36/48 hours.
Green flashes reported on the skin support the conclusion that putrefaction had just commenced, again it varies, but typically occurs 2-3 days after death.

So counting back, around the 7th or 8th of September.

All the best.

[John G]

Hi John
That's a very interesting point that I hadn't considered before.
A few years back there were discussions about the flaps of abdominal skin removed from Annie Chapman and Mary Jane Kelly and some suggested this may have been part of JTR's signature. That Elizabeth Jackson also had these flaps of skin removed has always been a puzzle to me because of those discussions.

Hi Debra,

Thanks. I have to admit that you have highlighted a striking similarity between the way Liz Jackson, Annie Chapman and Mary Jane Kelly were abdominally mutilated, which I find somewhat perplexing. And then there's the Pinchin Street Torso. In this case there seems to be clear allusions to the Whitechapel murders. For instance, the victim was possibly killed on the anniversary of Annie Chapman's death; the Torso was probably placed by the same arches that Schwartz ran to after being disturbed by BS man; the word "Lipski" was written nearby in large chalk letters.

Considering that Jackson and Pinchin Street both post-dated the Whitechapel murders, I wonder if they were intended as a parody of JtR's crimes. And, of course, we have some of Liz Jackson's remains thrown into the garden of Sir Percy Shelley's house, which hints at mischievous behaviour, as does the placing of the Whitehall Torso within the foundations of the New Scotland Yard building, the Pinchin Street Torso being left near to two sleeping drunks, and the Tottenham Torso placed in an area almost constantly observed by the police and next to a military drill hall.

Of course, another possibility is two serial killers operating together, however, I consider that an unlikely proposition.