The Whitehall Mystery

[John G]

Hi again, John
I just got the time to check through Rob Clack's excellent article on the Whitehall case back in Ripperologist 133 (Ripperologist is a free to subscribe to and old issues can be downloaded for free too) and he makes no mention of another arm begin found in the vault either and his newspaper sources number into the hundreds, including the Times.

Hello Debra,

Thanks for this. I'm beginning to think that there may be some issues with Trow's book, such as the reliability of the research, not least concerning the tattoo, although Girl with the Rose Tattoo was an excellent idea for a chapter heading!

I think that perhaps you should consider writing a definitive account of the Torso Murders/Mysteries, as there clearly seems to be problems with both Trow's and Gordon's books. Moreover, you have obviously studied and analysed the crimes in a great deal of detail, whilst I'm not completely convinced the aforementioned writers have!

[John G]

A series of failed illegal medical procedures ?

Well, as there was no obvious reason to undertake abdominal surgery in any of these cases, perhaps you think that we should be looking for a crazy wannabe surgeon. Abby referred to Ripperstein or Frankenripper some time ago, so maybe we're looking for either a mad Dr Ripperstein, or Dr Frankenripper!

[Debra A]

Hello Debra,

Thanks for this. I'm beginning to think that there may be some issues with Trow's book, such as the reliability of the research, not least concerning the tattoo, although Girl with the Rose Tattoo was an excellent idea for a chapter heading!

I think that perhaps you should consider writing a definitive account of the Torso Murders/Mysteries, as there clearly seems to be problems with both Trow's and Gordon's books! Moreover, you have obviously studied and analysed the crimes in a great deal of detail, whilst I'm not completely convinced the aforementioned writers have!

Thanks John. Trow is a good writer and his book is an easy, enjoyable read I'm finding. He tells a good story and the torso cases are an excellent source of material for a fertile imagination!
One day I will pull my finger out.

And thankfully, I won't have any need to use the word Caesarean if I did a book, which is a good job seeing as I haven't managed to spell it correctly once in the whole thread!

[John G]

Thanks John. Trow is a good writer and his book is an easy, enjoyable read I'm finding. He tells a good story and the torso cases are an excellent source of material for a fertile imagination!
One day I will get my finger out.

Hello Debra,

Yes, I also found Trow's book an enjoyable read, and at least he didn't propose that the Torso killer, JtR and Chapman the poisoner were the same serial killer, unlike another writer on the subject! It's also a pity that Professor Alison, the criminologist who wrote the forward to the book, didn't provide any detailed insights. I think I just need to wait for your definitive version!

I must admit that I didn't know that the word Caesarean was capitalized- and the fact that there seems to be little evidence that the procedure was named after Gaius Julius Caesar!

[Trevor Marriott]

Well, as there was no obvious reason to undertake abdominal surgery in any of these cases, perhaps you think that we should be looking for a crazy wannabe surgeon. Abby referred to Ripperstein or Frankenripper some time ago, so maybe we're looking for either a mad Dr Ripperstein, or Dr Frankenripper!

You have been listening to Debra for too long, and dwelling on your serial killer who went about shocking everyone

Perhaps after your futile attempt at humor, you might want to consider that had any of these women died in back street procedures. There is perhaps a likelihood that that person knowing the value of organs removed some of the vital organs before dismembering, and disposing of the unwanted parts. Because as has been seem vital organs were missing from some of the torsos and in demand for research.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

You have been listening to Debra for too long, and dwelling on your serial killer who went about shocking everyone

Perhaps after your futile attempt at humor, you might want to consider that had any of these women died in back street procedures. There is perhaps a likelihood that that person knowing the value of organs removed some of the vital organs before dismembering, and disposing of the unwanted parts. Because as has been seem vital organs were missing from some of the torsos and in demand for research.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But with respect, Trevor, you have failed to refute Debra's argument that the abdominal procedures are not remotely suggestive of an attempted medical procedure, unless we're looking at an insane wannabe doctor. Nor is there any evidence whatsoever that any of the missing organs were sold for research purposes. And can you provide any evidence that there was an illicit trade, in the late Victorian period, in illegally obtained organs?

It seems to me that murder is by far the most likely explanation for all of the Torso cases, and that any other alternative is only an extreme possibility.

[Debra A]

You have been listening to Debra for too long, and dwelling on your serial killer who went about shocking everyone

Perhaps after your futile attempt at humor, you might want to consider that had any of these women died in back street procedures. There is perhaps a likelihood that that person knowing the value of organs removed some of the vital organs before dismembering, and disposing of the unwanted parts. Because as has been seem vital organs were missing from some of the torsos and in demand for research.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And there's the real reason why you won't entertain a serial killer scenario with the torso cases and insist on promoting the ridiculous idea of a deranged medic who performs abdominal butchery in the name of abortion, killing the woman and now, apparently removing organs for selling on too! Simply because it ties in to your agenda with regards to the JTR murders.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Debra
In your opinion-Which of the torso victims seem most similar to each other and could have been killed by the same person?

[RockySullivan]

Hi john, I think the torso may have been the vault the same amount of time as the buried leg. The wall was blackened from it Being there and I think it was estimated to have sat there for six weeks. I dot object to the possibility they were brought at different times but I think it would have been close together. I don't believe the workers are reliable and think they may have been lying. They were viewed with suspicion and the foreman acknowledged the possibility of an inside job.

Deb, while you are reading trow, will you keep an eye out for the whitehall chapter and part where the worker was sighted at whitehall and admitted being there on a day he was not working when he was questioned?

I wonder if there might be a connection between Francis Tyler and one of the whitehall workers who used the vault such as a relation through marriage

[Trevor Marriott]

And there's the real reason why you won't entertain a serial killer scenario with the torso cases and insist on promoting the ridiculous idea of a deranged medic who performs abdominal butchery in the name of abortion, killing the woman and now, apparently removing organs for selling on too! Simply because it ties in to your agenda with regards to the JTR murders.

You are so far from the truth. I don't believe there is any connection between any of the torsos and The Whitechapel murders. But if you believe the contrary then feel free to show the comparisons which will conclusivley prove what you believe.

Of course it should be noted that not all of the Whitechapel victims were killed by the same hand so you have an uphill task pinning the torsos on the mythical JTR

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Debra
In your opinion-Which of the torso victims seem most similar to each other and could have been killed by the same person?

Perhaps you would be so kind as to answer you own question and tell us why before Debs answers it.?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[RockySullivan]

I wonder if any of the torso victims where ever found with newspapers aside from whitehall?

[Debra A]

You are so far from the truth. I don't believe there is any connection between any of the torsos and The Whitechapel murders. But if you believe the contrary then feel free to show the comparisons which will conclusivley prove what you believe.

Of course it should be noted that not all of the Whitechapel victims were killed by the same hand so you have an uphill task pinning the torsos on the mythical JTR

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

That isn't what I wrote, Trevor. I'm suggesting that because you have decided there was no organ stealing JTR and the organs were removed at the mortuary for selling on, you have a chance to bolster that theory by claiming the same in another set of cases where organs were missing but bodies were dismembered to show there was a market in this sort of thing.

However, it is difficult for me to understand exactly what you are proposing most of the time as your theories have become a mix and match of various scenarios that don't really fit the evidence.

[John G]

Hi john, I think the torso may have been the vault the same amount of time as the buried leg. The wall was blackened from it Being there and I think it was estimated to have sat there for six weeks. I dot object to the possibility they were brought at different times but I think it would have been close together. I don't believe the workers are reliable and think they may have been lying. They were viewed with suspicion and the foreman acknowledged the possibility of an inside job.

Deb, while you are reading trow, will you keep an eye out for the whitehall chapter and part where the worker was sighted at whitehall and admitted being there on a day he was not working when he was questioned?

I wonder if there might be a connection between Francis Tyler and one of the whitehall workers who used the vault such as a relation through marriage

Hi Rocky,

One reason for suspecting an inside job is that access to the vault, were the remains were found, was difficult. One of the workers stated that he believed it could only have been accessed by someone who knew the site personally or had it minutely described to him.

[Debra A]

Hi Debra
In your opinion-Which of the torso victims seem most similar to each other and could have been killed by the same person?

Hi Rocky
I think there's definitely similarities in the cases 87-89.