The Whitehall Mystery

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,
Yes, but just as you insist on popping in and saying these women could have died as a result of abortion or have been medical specimens etc. based on not much supporting evidence of that, then others have exactly the same right to come along and suggest a link between the torsos or explore a link to the Whitechapel murder, if they feel that way inclined.

As an aside-I believe that dismemberment after domestic murder is extremely common if not with serial killers?

Debs
I am not popping in, and I agree with what you say, and the sad fact is that those who postulate murder most foul and serial killers on this thread are clearly by their posts totally blinkered to anything or any plausible explanation which goes against their beliefs.

Tel me at what point does the exploration end, and definitive answer realized?

Now you have introduced another aspect that being domestic murder which is plausible, so now we go from serial killer to solo killer. I don't know what the expectation of all this going round in circles is.

You have accepted that one or some of the Torsos could have been as a result of murder that I don't disagree with. You, we, I, them, or us, are never going to get to the bottom of all of these torsos, so why not put it to bed now, and leave them as we agreed "The Torso Mysteries" or The Thames Torso Mysteries? all this posting and re posting is simply repetitive and time consuming.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi all

This is just background, not a million miles away obviously and
shows another aspect, or should I say, a different aspect, to the paupers dread of the workhouse.

Haverford West and Milford Haven Telegraph. 3rd of November 1880.

THE DISSECTION OF UNCLAIMED DEAD.

The authorities of Guy's Hospital, with a view to perfecting the students in the science of anatomy have issued a request to many of the Metropolitan boards of guardians that the unclaimed bodies of persons dying in the workhouses should be handed over to the hospital surgeons for dissection and promising proper burials once the operation is over.
On the letter being read to the Bethnal Green guardians, it was suggested by the chairman that the request be acceded to.
This met with a vigorous opposition from Mr Smither, Mr Ward, Mr Thurgood, and others, who said the poor would shrink from entering the workhouse if there was the chance that their bodies would be handed over to strangers to be cut and maimed, thus preventing those who really should seek asylum at the hands of the Guardians from doing so.
Mr Jacobs saw no reason against such a use being made of the bodies and reminded the guardians in a case of sudden death the coroner had it in his power to order a post mortem examination.
The Rev. H.G. Henderson pointed out that the proposal was for the benefit of the poor, and that the guardians would be best consulting the interests of those they had to guard by making the concession.
There were at present 250 students at the hospital, who would before long be treating those requiring medical aid; and the more proficient they became in their profession , the better would it be for society in general.
After some further discussion, in which it was stated those who voted for such a thing would be known as "Bethnal green body snatchers" the motion was agreed by six votes to four.
It was decided however, to keep each body three days in the mortuary before parting with it to the hospital authorities, that it might be claimed by any relatives.


All the best.

Hi Martin
Thank you another piece of valuable information. Just to mention that The Anatomy Act 1832 gave a free licence for medical students, anatomists to obtain specimens for medical research from mortuaries.

The Anatomy Act provided for the needs of physicians, surgeons and students by giving them legal access to corpses that were unclaimed after death, in particular corpses of those who had died in prison or a workhouse.

Further, a person could donate the corpse of a next of kin in exchange for burial at the expense of the anatomy school.

Now I wonder who took the organs of Eddowes and Chapman ?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

According to a few detailed newspaper reports it was something done to bodies when a person had died at sea. Most newspapers only alluded vaguely to the plugging but one described it exactly.
There is some mention of medical procedure associated with it in one of the medical jurisprudence book I researched in which I have mentioned before- archaic and possibly pregnancy and abortion related (where abortifacients were used.) This was used by professional medics in legitimate abortions and copied by back street abortionists, particularly the 'herbalists' variety who didn't always introduce instruments into the procedure but sometimes killed women by poisoning.

Hi Debs
So as far as Elizabeth Jackson is concerned the butt plugging is now important in determining murder by a killer, or wilful murder by a back street medic is it not?

She either had her butt plugged in this way for burial at sea. Or it was plugged during the course of some back street operation? I would suggest no a difficult decsion to decide on

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[John G]

Debs
I am not popping in, and I agree with what you say, and the sad fact is that those who postulate murder most foul and serial killers on this thread are clearly by their posts totally blinkered to anything or any plausible explanation which goes against their beliefs.

Tel me at what point does the exploration end, and definitive answer realized?

Now you have introduced another aspect that being domestic murder which is plausible, so now we go from serial killer to solo killer. I don't know what the expectation of all this going round in circles is.

You have accepted that one or some of the Torsos could have been as a result of murder that I don't disagree with. You, we, I, them, or us, are never going to get to the bottom of all of these torsos, so why not put it to bed now, and leave them as we agreed "The Torso Mysteries" or The Thames Torso Mysteries? all this posting and re posting is simply repetitive and time consuming.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor,

The vast majority of serial killers engage in ritualistic behaviour: 97.4% according to one study: Schlesinger (2010). And dismemberment is a form of ritualistic behaviour. In fact, in the Schlesinger study one offender progressed from genital mutilation to dismemberment. And this type of ritualistic behaviour is far from unprecedented: The Cleveland Torso Murderer killed and dismembered at least 12 victims, for example. Ted Bundy also dismembered many of his victims, keeping body parts, such as heads, as trophies. And, as Dr Biggs pointed out, dismemberment is usually carried out for purposes of concealing a homicide.

It seems to me that with many of the Thames Torso cases there is no other sensible explanation other than murder. Moreover, if the perpetrator wasn't engage in ritualistic behaviour then why he take so many risks when disposing of the body, I.e Whitehall, Tottenham, Pinchin Street?

[John Wheat]

[QUOTE=RockySullivan;343395]So you think it's likely two unrelated killers targeted poor women who resorted to prostitution and were sleeping roughing and killed them and removed uterus. Look at the similarities between the way Kelly and Jackson were cut up. The torso was dumped in the railway arch Schwartz was chased to and lipski was written there...is that a coincidence? Why was a newspaper from the date the Tabram inquest verdict appeared in print placed with the whitehall torso? There certainly ARE coincidences with the two cases but the most significant is again it's highly unlikely there were two serial killers operating in London who cut up women and removed their uterus. How many times Jack removed it is irrelevant...the point is he did.[/QUOTE

To Rocky

A few coincidences mean nothing. There is no evidence and not even any logic that Jack and the Torso Killer were one and the same.

Cheers John

[Debra A]

Hi Debs
So as far as Elizabeth Jackson is concerned the butt plugging is now important in determining murder by a killer, or wilful murder by a back street medic is it not?

She either had her butt plugged in this way for burial at sea. Or it was plugged during the course of some back street operation? I would suggest no a difficult decsion to decide on

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

If Elizabeth was poisoned by a back street herbalist abortionist and the foetus was removed during dismemberment so that other organs that would give the tell tale signs of poisoning could be removed then that makes sense to me as a possibility because other women did die that way.

Your scenario of an abortionist who removed a foetus through abdominal surgery , killed Elizabeth and then chopped her up is less likely unless the medic concerned was someone who just fancied he was a doctor in his own mind-in that case I'd suggest he was perhaps an unhinged individual capable of serial murder.

The 'marine knowledge' scenario is from a primary source- the newspapers of the time reporting on the specific case.
The use during abortion is from a secondary source (my research) into procedures of the era and was never specifically mentioned in relation to Elizabeth's case.

[John Wheat]

It seems to me that with many of the Thames Torso cases there is no other sensible explanation other than murder. Moreover, if the perpetrator wasn't engage in ritualistic behaviour then why he take so many risks when disposing of the body, I.e Whitehall, Tottenham, Pinchin Street?

Absolutely John. There is no other reasonable explanation in the Thames Torso cases other than murder.

Cheers John

[Debra A]

Tel me at what point does the exploration end, and definitive answer realized?

It's not compulsory to join in if you don't like it, Trevor!
You do a good impression of Gene Hunt but you aren't actually in charge here. People can spend their time discussing what they like...it's a hobby, no one really believes they are actually working a cold case, do they?!
I enjoy reading others' input.

Off for lunch in the sun now.

[Abby Normal]

If Elizabeth was poisoned by a back street herbalist abortionist and the foetus was removed during dismemberment so that other organs that would give the tell tale signs of poisoning could be removed then that makes sense to me as a possibility because other women did die that way.

Your scenario of an abortionist who removed a foetus through abdominal surgery , killed Elizabeth and then chopped her up is less likely unless the medic concerned was someone who just fancied he was a doctor in his own mind-in that case I'd suggest he was perhaps an unhinged individual capable of serial murder.

The 'marine knowledge' scenario is from a primary source- the newspapers of the time reporting on the specific case.
The use during abortion is from a secondary source (my research) into procedures of the era and was never specifically mentioned in relation to Elizabeth's case.

Hi Debra
Or the but plugging is not really related for practical purposes of burial at sea or medical purposes, but mainly for pleasure, as is the case with many post mortem serial killers who insert objects into the orifices of their victims.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Debra
Or the but plugging is not really related for practical purposes of burial at sea or medical purposes, but mainly for pleasure, as is the case with many post mortem serial killers who insert objects into the orifices of their victims.

The plug was made of fine linen hardly what you could call an object for sexual pleasure or desire. More for medical purposes !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

It's not compulsory to join in if you don't like it, Trevor!
You do a good impression of Gene Hunt but you aren't actually in charge here. People can spend their time discussing what they like...it's a hobby, no one really believes they are actually working a cold case, do they?!
I enjoy reading others' input.

Off for lunch in the sun now.

Funny you should mention Gene Hunt because many of my former colleagues have always said that one of the characters from Life on Mars could have been fashioned on me. I have never seen the series so I dont know so I will have to take a look and see if I agree or not !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[martin wilson]

Hi Trevor

Eddowes and Chapman? Why do I get the feeling when you make a cuppa you don't need to use a spoon?

There might, only might mind be something of interest to you, and it is going back to the Wood case in post #109.
I have no idea if this was general practice to use inmates as workers but it does suggest possibilities.

Denbighshire Free Press 4th February 1882. (relevant section)

Mr R. Basil Cane, an inspector of the Local Government Board conducted an inquiry at the Sheffield Workhouse into the circumstances of the case.
It appeared that the deceased's face and head had been shaved at the medical school before a messenger arrived to stop operations.
The Workhouse regulations required the master not to give up any body for dissection until he had ascertained the non existence of relatives.
Mr Heastie, the master of the Workhouse said he had a general application from the school for the bodies of unclaimed paupers. He had sent twelve bodies to the medical school while he had been master, but had never recei ved any certificate or reported to the Visiting Committee.
The person responsible for the proper removal of the proper body to the school was the pauper inmate who had charge of the dead house.
The inquiry was concluded and the Inspector will report to the Local Government Board.

All the best.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor

Eddowes and Chapman? Why do I get the feeling when you make a cuppa you don't need to use a spoon?

Its a gift !

[Fisherman]

I disagree with your point about no underlying substantiation I've read many of your posts on Crossmere.

Cheers John

Then you are welcome to exemplify. Donīt be shy.

[Fisherman]

And every day on your return from Fantasy Island you come out with a new one.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Return? From Fantasy Island? I would never do that - I enjoy your company too much.