The Whitehall Mystery

[jerryd]

Met Board of Works

I totally agree with this post!
How ironic would it be if more understanding of the ripper case, or even helping ID the ripper was to come about through the torso case!!!

Another reason why I ask if there has been any more work done on the Board of Works connection?? there seemed to be some very interesting links a few posts back.

Hi Abby,

I started a thread on the other forum months back here. http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....ht=stinky+jack

Below is an 1878 map of London to give you reference of where the Board of Works meeting place (red arrow) and the location of the Whitehall torso at National Opera house (blue arrow) were. The yellow arrow is the Carlton Club. I threw that in because Francis Tumblety said he was a member of that club. There was also reference to the Carlton Club in William Wallace Brodie's 1877 larceny trial. I don't attach much meaning to it at this point but saw it on the map and wanted to point it out.

At the bottom of the map you can see the tail end of Cannon Row which was mentioned as a possible entrance to the vault. It is my opinion that the Metropolitan Board of Works would have over-seen the construction of the new police building. They oversaw the construction of the National Opera house.

[John Wheat]

I'm sorry to make another post So soon but I've just stumbled across a line of reasoning I haven't seen mentioned at all, well, basically anywhere and I need everyone's assistance in answering the question:

Has anyone been able to discover any signs that any of the torso victims were raped? Has any semen been noticed on any of the victims?

To me this is a very interesting thought. We would now have two killers, both operating at the same general time, in the same general area, targeting prostitues as victims, these victims demonstrating some of the same traits between both sets, and then the very curious point of both killers having an opportunity to have sex with/rape a large number of the victims and yet choosing not to.

I however, haven't looked at all the information and might be missing something.

I will say this - If others can help answer that none of the torso victims appeared to have had sex around time of death - this might be the biggest link yet between the possibility that JTR was involved in these torso cases. I am willing to overlook a large number of things as coincidences but two people targeting prostitutes in the same period of time, in the same general area, killing them and mutilating them, in some cases removing organs, cutting into the vagina in others, and yet neither one has sex with any of the victims? That seems EXTREMELY unlikely for two people to both demonstrate.

To Dane

I think we simply don't know as regards having sex with the prostitutes. But even if it was proved The Torso Killer didn't have intercourse with the prostitutes the possibility still remains that The Torso Killer performed sex acts with the heads.

Cheers John

[Abby Normal]

Hey John,

Just to correct some of your statements here.

First you state it as matter of fact that the mutilations inflicted by the torso killer were simply for purposes of efficient dismemberment. This is inaccurate. The only thing in this regard we have are people's opinion on the matter.

We don't even know which mutilations they were referring to because they don't specify. Could Dr. Phillips simply have been referring to the much larger mutilations of missing heads and limbs?

Does anyone have any Medical Expert they can ask this specific question: Would making a cut through the skin and muscle from near the neck down through the pubes into the vagina and out then not removing any organs aid in speeding up the dismemberment at all?

I have talked to my cousin who has been a paramedic for over 20 years and now teaches a class to students training to be a paramedic. I have also talked to my brother-in-law who is a Registered Nurse and has worked in the emergency room trama center for over 5 years. Neither of them could see a way that making a long gash through a torso and then not removing any organs would speed up dismemberment at all. If someone could consult a doctor that would be of great benefit. I however am willing to bet any amount of money that their answer will be the same.

As far only one uterus was missing, let's also keep in mind that a heart and part of the intestines were missing as well in the case of Jackson.

Given this, the similarity of the way flaps of skin were removed and that she was known prostitute (and IDed, unlike the rest of the torsos and like the ripper victims) are making me lean towrd the idea that That Jackson and Kelly were killed by the same hand.

[Abby Normal]

Hi John,

Why do you keep quoting me to post about how JTR and The Torso Killer were different people? I have never made the claim they were the same.

All I have attempted to do is post the facts of what the autopsy stated and then noticed similarities between it and the other torso victims and some of JTRs. My original post on the Pinchin St Torso was simply to point out that people seemed to have forgotten that she also had abdominal and vaginal mutilation.

Please keep in mind, I don't have a Ripper suspect I believe in and I'm not even sure which victims can be counted in his number. To me it is of the utmost interest that in this same relative timeframe, in this same relative area (London), there appears to possibly be another serial killer who demonstrates through his victims some of the same traits shown in some of the alleged Ripper Victims.

Are there differences as well? Quite clearly there are. Should we ignore the facts of these torsos and pretend they are so different from Kelly they couldn't have been committed by the same hand? To what benefit is that?

To me this seems like one of the last few areas that people haven't throughly explored. Isn't it of the most extreme importance that we kick over every stone to see if there is any possible link at all to JTR since this could lead to additional understanding and knowledge in the overall case?

I totally agree with this post!
How ironic would it be if more understanding of the ripper case, or even helping ID the ripper was to come about through the torso case!!!

Another reason why I ask if there has been any more work done on the Board of Works connection?? there seemed to be some very interesting links a few posts back.

[Abby Normal]

I'm sorry to make another post So soon but I've just stumbled across a line of reasoning I haven't seen mentioned at all, well, basically anywhere and I need everyone's assistance in answering the question:

Has anyone been able to discover any signs that any of the torso victims were raped? Has any semen been noticed on any of the victims?

To me this is a very interesting thought. We would now have two killers, both operating at the same general time, in the same general area, targeting prostitues as victims, these victims demonstrating some of the same traits between both sets, and then the very curious point of both killers having an opportunity to have sex with/rape a large number of the victims and yet choosing not to.

I however, haven't looked at all the information and might be missing something.

I will say this - If others can help answer that none of the torso victims appeared to have had sex around time of death - this might be the biggest link yet between the possibility that JTR was involved in these torso cases. I am willing to overlook a large number of things as coincidences but two people targeting prostitutes in the same period of time, in the same general area, killing them and mutilating them, in some cases removing organs, cutting into the vagina in others, and yet neither one has sex with any of the victims? That seems EXTREMELY unlikely for two people to both demonstrate.

Hi Dane Great point!
I don't believe any of the torsos had evidence of sexual contact immediate to time of death and would think that that may be difficult to ascertain.

But I'll leave your question up to more knowledgeable folks on here like Debra.

But your right, the not having sex with/raping would add another BIG similarity.

[Paddy]

Out of interest, did the police ever take pictures or sketches of the Torso victims?
Pat....

[John G]

Regarding experts. Dr Biggs, a forensic pathologist engaged by Trevor Marriott, considered both the Torso and Whitechapel murders. He concluded that they were unlikely to be the same killer, given the "vastly different" MO. In fact, he said that the Torso victims could have been committed by different killers, or may not have been murdered.

[Dane_F]

I'm sorry to make another post So soon but I've just stumbled across a line of reasoning I haven't seen mentioned at all, well, basically anywhere and I need everyone's assistance in answering the question:

Has anyone been able to discover any signs that any of the torso victims were raped? Has any semen been noticed on any of the victims?

To me this is a very interesting thought. We would now have two killers, both operating at the same general time, in the same general area, targeting prostitues as victims, these victims demonstrating some of the same traits between both sets, and then the very curious point of both killers having an opportunity to have sex with/rape a large number of the victims and yet choosing not to.

I however, haven't looked at all the information and might be missing something.

I will say this - If others can help answer that none of the torso victims appeared to have had sex around time of death - this might be the biggest link yet between the possibility that JTR was involved in these torso cases. I am willing to overlook a large number of things as coincidences but two people targeting prostitutes in the same period of time, in the same general area, killing them and mutilating them, in some cases removing organs, cutting into the vagina in others, and yet neither one has sex with any of the victims? That seems EXTREMELY unlikely for two people to both demonstrate.

[John G]

Hey John,

Just to correct some of your statements here.

First you state it as matter of fact that the mutilations inflicted by the torso killer were simply for purposes of efficient dismemberment. This is inaccurate. The only thing in this regard we have are people's opinion on the matter.

We don't even know which mutilations they were referring to because they don't specify. Could Dr. Phillips simply have been referring to the much larger mutilations of missing heads and limbs?

Does anyone have any Medical Expert they can ask this specific question: Would making a cut through the skin and muscle from near the neck down through the pubes into the vagina and out then not removing any organs aid in speeding up the dismemberment at all?

I have talked to my cousin who has been a paramedic for over 20 years and now teaches a class to students training to be a paramedic. I have also talked to my brother-in-law who is a Registered Nurse and has worked in the emergency room trama center for over 5 years. Neither of them could see a way that making a long gash through a torso and then not removing any organs would speed up dismemberment at all. If someone could consult a doctor that would be of great benefit. I however am willing to bet any amount of money that their answer will be the same.

As far only one uterus was missing, let's also keep in mind that a heart and part of the intestines were missing as well in the case of Jackson.

Hello Dane,

I think, as regards, the Pinchin Torso, I would agree that the gash is hard to explain. In fact, it clearly puzzled Commissioner Monro, who concluded that it was intended to simulate the Whitechapel murders.

[John G]

There was certainly some confusion going around as it seemed to me like you were making a rebuttal to my post and then going on to argue about the differences between JTR and the Torso Killer. If that wasn't your intention I apologize, it was a misunderstanding and lead to the confusion.

No problem Dane, I actually think you made some valid points.

[Dane_F]

Hello Dane,

I'm confused. When have I ever suggested that you believe the torso killer and JtR were the same? In fact, I said your post was well thought out and reasoned, which it was. In fact, how could I disagree with it, because you were essentially just outlining the facts, and you clearly made some valid points. In fact, I think it was one of the best and most objectively reasoned posts on the thread. I think, therefore, you must be confusing me with someone else! I was simply replying to your post, addressed to me, outlining my own views and interpretation of the evidence., which you may or not agree with. However, if you don't want me to reply to you in future I won't do so.

There was certainly some confusion going around as it seemed to me like you were making a rebuttal to my post and then going on to argue about the differences between JTR and the Torso Killer. If that wasn't your intention I apologize, it was a misunderstanding and lead to the confusion.

[Dane_F]

Hi Abby,

But you have to consider motive. It does appear that the mutilations inflicted by the torso killer were simply for purposes of efficient dismemberment, not so JtR. As for the missing organs, only one uterus was missing from the torso victims, and could have been lost during disposal. And no kidneys were missing. I believe Liz Jackson's lungs were also missing. Seriously? You think a serial killer intent on collecting trophies would elect to retain the lungs?

Hey John,

Just to correct some of your statements here.

First you state it as matter of fact that the mutilations inflicted by the torso killer were simply for purposes of efficient dismemberment. This is inaccurate. The only thing in this regard we have are people's opinion on the matter.

We don't even know which mutilations they were referring to because they don't specify. Could Dr. Phillips simply have been referring to the much larger mutilations of missing heads and limbs?

Does anyone have any Medical Expert they can ask this specific question: Would making a cut through the skin and muscle from near the neck down through the pubes into the vagina and out then not removing any organs aid in speeding up the dismemberment at all?

I have talked to my cousin who has been a paramedic for over 20 years and now teaches a class to students training to be a paramedic. I have also talked to my brother-in-law who is a Registered Nurse and has worked in the emergency room trama center for over 5 years. Neither of them could see a way that making a long gash through a torso and then not removing any organs would speed up dismemberment at all. If someone could consult a doctor that would be of great benefit. I however am willing to bet any amount of money that their answer will be the same.

As far only one uterus was missing, let's also keep in mind that a heart and part of the intestines were missing as well in the case of Jackson.

[John G]

Hi John,

Why do you keep quoting me to post about how JTR and The Torso Killer were different people? I have never made the claim they were the same.

All I have attempted to do is post the facts of what the autopsy stated and then noticed similarities between it and the other torso victims and some of JTRs. My original post on the Pinchin St Torso was simply to point out that people seemed to have forgotten that she also had abdominal and vaginal mutilation.

Please keep in mind, I don't have a Ripper suspect I believe in and I'm not even sure which victims can be counted in his number. To me it is of the utmost interest that in this same relative timeframe, in this same relative area (London), there appears to possibly be another serial killer who demonstrates through his victims some of the same traits shown in some of the alleged Ripper Victims.

Are there differences as well? Quite clearly there are. Should we ignore the facts of these torsos and pretend they are so different from Kelly they couldn't have been committed by the same hand? To what benefit is that?

To me this seems like one of the last few areas that people haven't throughly explored. Isn't it of the most extreme importance that we kick over every stone to see if there is any possible link at all to JTR since this could lead to additional understanding and knowledge in the overall case?

Hello Dane,

I'm confused. When have I ever suggested that you believe the torso killer and JtR were the same? In fact, I said your post was well thought out and reasoned, which it was. In fact, how could I disagree with it, because you were essentially just outlining the facts, and you clearly made some valid points. In fact, I think it was one of the best and most objectively reasoned posts on the thread. I think, therefore, you must be confusing me with someone else! I was simply replying to your post, addressed to me, outlining my own views and interpretation of the evidence., which you may or not agree with. However, if you don't want me to reply to you in future I won't do so.

[Dane_F]

Hello Dane,

Thank you. This is obviously a well thought out post, and objectively reasoned. Okay, Pinchin Street Torso. I think the starting point should be Dr Phillips' opinion, giving at the inquest, concerning the mutilations: " The mutilations in the Dorset Street case were most wanton, whereas in this case it strikes me that they were made for the purpose of disposing of the body."

Dr Clarke carried out the post mortem on the Pinchin Street Torso. In 1910 he gave an interview to the East London Observer: " He pointed out that during the scare all sorts of stories were spread through the newspapers, and every murder that was perpetrated was attributed to "Jack the Ripper". For instance, a headless and armless woman was found and her death attributed to him. But this case, Dr Clarke points out, in no way resembled those in Dorset-Street and Hanbury Street." He also remarked on the wounds inflicted by JtR: "There was nothing of a professional character about these wounds. The bodies were simply slashed from head to foot." You will note that Dr Hebbert believed that the Torso Killer had demonstrated a great deal of skill when dismembering the bodies.

Nonetheless, Commissioner Monro believed that the wound leading to the vagina was made to simulate the Ripper crimes. That is one of the reasons why I have argued that the Pinchin Torso may have been intended to parody JtR's murders, despite the significant differences.

Dr Hebbert made these remarks about Liz Jackson: "that the mutilations were carried out after death by some person with a considerable technical knowledge of the speediest mode of cutting up animals." You will note, firstly, that he credits the perpetrator with a great deal of skill, unlike Dr Clarke's opinion of JtR, who was simply a "slasher". He also refers, in respect of the mutilations, to the "speediest mode of cutting up animals." I think we can reasonably infer from this that the mutilations were carried out to expedite the dismemberment/disposal process, in as efficient a manner as possible. This is also supported by his reference to "technical knowledge". This is also supported by other comments Dr Hebbert makes, when comparing Liz Jackson to the other torso murders:"The mode of dismemberment and mutilation was in all similar, and showed very considerable skill in execution..." He also notes: "It was clear from the direction and manner of the cuts that no ordinary surgical or dissecting operation had been carried out, but the system of division of the parts gave evidence of design and skill,-the design probably being for the purpose of concealment of the crime and easy carriage of the parts." In other words, exactly the conclusion that Dr Phillips made in relation to the Pinchin Street Torso.

Importantly, at no point does Dr Hebbert suggest that the mutilations were undertaken for any "weird" purpose, or for any purpose other than the disposal of the body. Now, I've no idea why JtR inflicted mutilations, but he clearly was not trying to "skilfully" dismember and dispose of the body!

Now I know that a number of posters have eagerly dismissed signature analysis, but it is accepted by the courts as a means of linking murders. If we take Rainham and Whitehall, we have a killer who is clearly determined to prevent the bodies from being identified. He is clearly careful, and organized. Are we then to believe that he suddenly transforms himself into JtR, a killer murdering victims in public places, and who make no attempt to disguise their identity? What's all the more remarkable is that he then apparently transforms himself back into the Torso killer, deciding that Plan A was a better option after all! In my opinion, we are dealing with two very different personalities, and therefore two very different killers.

Hi John,

Why do you keep quoting me to post about how JTR and The Torso Killer were different people? I have never made the claim they were the same.

All I have attempted to do is post the facts of what the autopsy stated and then noticed similarities between it and the other torso victims and some of JTRs. My original post on the Pinchin St Torso was simply to point out that people seemed to have forgotten that she also had abdominal and vaginal mutilation.

Please keep in mind, I don't have a Ripper suspect I believe in and I'm not even sure which victims can be counted in his number. To me it is of the utmost interest that in this same relative timeframe, in this same relative area (London), there appears to possibly be another serial killer who demonstrates through his victims some of the same traits shown in some of the alleged Ripper Victims.

Are there differences as well? Quite clearly there are. Should we ignore the facts of these torsos and pretend they are so different from Kelly they couldn't have been committed by the same hand? To what benefit is that?

To me this seems like one of the last few areas that people haven't throughly explored. Isn't it of the most extreme importance that we kick over every stone to see if there is any possible link at all to JTR since this could lead to additional understanding and knowledge in the overall case?

[John G]

Thanks JohnG
No worries. appreciate the reply.

,

But that's the point ive been making the whole time! He emphatically does NOT only target the genitals as JTR! there is the evidence that in some of the torsos the vagina was cut and or organs of reproduction targeted (Close enough in my opinion to "genitals").
And the ripper didn't only target the genitals-he dam near cut everything else! with the primary FOCUS apparently on genitals, abdomen and internal organs.



as ive said before-hes not going to bring a saw with him out into the streets!! and again, he may have tried to decapitate Chapman with just his knife and found it wasn't feasible, so stopped really trying with subsequent victims.

if you boil it down to its base aspect-what we have are two (or one) serial killers who like to cut up, take out organs, remove body parts post mortem of prostitutes they've killed (probably strangled or knocked out first) and display victims for shock value. Add to that operating at the same time and place.

Amazing similarity IMHO and if they are different men then an amazing coincidence!

Hi Abby,

But you have to consider motive. It does appear that the mutilations inflicted by the torso killer were simply for purposes of efficient dismemberment, not so JtR. As for the missing organs, only one uterus was missing from the torso victims, and could have been lost during disposal. And no kidneys were missing. I believe Liz Jackson's lungs were also missing. Seriously? You think a serial killer intent on collecting trophies would elect to retain the lungs?