The Whitehall Mystery

[Abby Normal]

But what about the dissimilarity in the way the heart was removed? With Kelly, the chest cavity was emptied from below, with Jackson sternum was split and the ribs were opened up.

Hi Joshua
Welcome! If torso man and the ripper were the same man, then as I've said before, when he is trolling for prostitutes out on the street he's probably only going to bring a knife, not a saw or other dissecting tools.

Also, the heart was removed in both. That similarity alone outweighs any difference in how they were removed

[Dane_F]

I've been thinking about the seemingly pointless opening of the abdomen seen in some of the torso cases; it doesn't seem to have helped in the dismemberment process, yet it doesn't seem to have been used to access / remove the internal organs either. But then I remembered something...

In 1879, the British army suffered one of it's worst ever defeats, to the Zulus at Isandlwana. When the British returned to the battlefield, they were dismayed to find that the Zulus had apparently inflicted terrible mutilations upon the fallen, including ripping open their abdomens.
Now, I'm not saying that a Zulu warrior was responsible for the torsos. But they did this because the decomposing bodies would fill with gas and swell up alarmingly.
Could Torso Man have opened them up for the same reason?
Would it make a body less buoyant?

Hello Joshua. That's certainly a cool story, unfortunately, in the case of the Pinchin Street Torso she was dumped on dry land in a place where she would be found remarkably fast.

[Joshua Rogan]

I've been thinking about the seemingly pointless opening of the abdomen seen in some of the torso cases; it doesn't seem to have helped in the dismemberment process, yet it doesn't seem to have been used to access / remove the internal organs either. But then I remembered something...

In 1879, the British army suffered one of it's worst ever defeats, to the Zulus at Isandlwana. When the British returned to the battlefield, they were dismayed to find that the Zulus had apparently inflicted terrible mutilations upon the fallen, including ripping open their abdomens.
Now, I'm not saying that a Zulu warrior was responsible for the torsos. But they did this because the decomposing bodies would fill with gas and swell up alarmingly.
Could Torso Man have opened them up for the same reason?
Would it make a body less buoyant?

[Joshua Rogan]

Given this, the similarity of the way flaps of skin were removed and that she was known prostitute (and IDed, unlike the rest of the torsos and like the ripper victims) are making me lean towrd the idea that That Jackson and Kelly were killed by the same hand.

But what about the dissimilarity in the way the heart was removed? With Kelly, the chest cavity was emptied from below, with Jackson sternum was split and the ribs were opened up.

[Debra A]

Out of interest, did the police ever take pictures or sketches of the Torso victims?
Pat....

Yes, Pat. The Whitehall torso was definitely photographed, she was propped up on a barrel and box to take her to her full height and with the arm laid in place at her side. The photograph prompted one newspaper journalists who saw it to comment on the 'obvious; breast surgery he noticed she had undergone, as evidenced by the scars across her breast, which would surely aid identification....it was in fact the deep indentations from the string that wrapped the torso that he was looking at.

[Debra A]

So, Debra... from a Jack of many trades to a trade of many Jacks, eh?

That's funny, Fisherman.
I think I've become senile or turned into some sort of dilbert or something...(that's a new word I learned today and makes me chuckle)
Stay happy.

[Joshua Rogan]

Evening all,
I've been lurking on this site for a long time, but this thread is so intriguing that I had to sign up and join in. So, where to start...

The 'missing' organs.
I believe the Whitehall torso was the only one where the uterus wasn't recovered. However, this wasn't a complete torso; the entire pelvis and (as Debra A pointed out earlier) all it's contents were never recovered, so I don't think you can say that the uterus had been removed, in the same sense that Annie Chapman's had been removed. It's entirely possible that it had been, but unless the rest of the body turns up (unlikely at this late stage) I don't think the absence of this organ can be used as a parallel to the Ripper case.

Elizabeth Jackson's torso was divided into three separate parts; shoulders to mid-chest, mid-chest to waist, and waist down. It strikes me that the missing organs - lungs and heart - would have been right in the path of the top cut, so may well have been damaged and/or dislodged by this process.
It's also possible they were eaten by fishes whilst it was in the water.
Then again, the sternum was divided vertically so they could equally have been removed by whoever dismantled her.
Isn't the opening of the chest cavity used in autopsies?

[Dane_F]

To Dane

I think we simply don't know as regards having sex with the prostitutes. But even if it was proved The Torso Killer didn't have intercourse with the prostitutes the possibility still remains that The Torso Killer performed sex acts with the heads.

Cheers John

Hello John W,

I have no doubts that the process to verify if the victims had intercourse would be difficult. This was also why I asked about semen since that would be easier to spot and last longer with the victims. I have read all 3 links to the autopsy Debra has posted and saw no mention to semen. It also seems like the genitals in those cases were viewed as normal, but my medical knowledge is limited.

I also agree that any number of things could possibly have happened. JTR could have also performed sexual acts on his bloody clothes (if there was any on it) or the organs or any number of scenarios. That doesn't really narrow anything down since almost anything is literally possible.

However, what does start to narrow things down is having two killers in the same general time frame, in the same general area, both focusing on "unfortunates", both mutilating bodies, both taking organs in some cases, both mutilating genitals in some cases, both never being seen in the act or around the bodies, both never being caught, and now as I pointed out both showing no signs of actually having sex with the victims. That starts to build up a long list of "coincidences" that becomes hard to ignore.

[John Wheat]

I would say that there is a strong possibility that both the torsoman and the ripper used body parts of their victims to facilitate sex acts.

another "possible" similarity.

To Abby

This is pure speculation.

Cheers John

[Observer]

Hi Abby

Consider the flap of skin taken from Liz Jackson

"Elizabeth Jackson-The flaps of skin and subcutaneous tissue consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons veneris the left labium majus, and labium minus The right piece included the rest of the mons veneris, the right labium majus and minus[in other word the external organs of generation], and part of the skin of the right buttock"

[Abby Normal]

To Abby Normal

I wouldn't say probably I would say that the possibility exists that the Ripper had sex with the organs.

Cheers John

I would say that there is a strong possibility that both the torsoman and the ripper used body parts of their victims to facilitate sex acts.

another "possible" similarity.

[John Wheat]

agree. and the ripper probably used the organs for same.

To Abby Normal

I wouldn't say probably I would say that the possibility exists that the Ripper had sex with the organs.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

Dr Clarke didn't think there was any "obvious similarities" between the JtR victims and the Torso victims. Mind you, what does he know, he was only Dr Phillips' assistant, who carried out the post mortem on the Pinchin Street Torso!

Can you actually cite a single expert, i.e. qualified doctor, who thought these murders were connected?

To John G

Yes I would like to see a single expert, i.e. qualified doctor who thought these murders were connected or even the opinions of a modern medical Dr who has reviewed the cases and thinks the murders are connected.

Cheers John

[Observer]

Yes your obviously both world class experts! As I've said before, I'm extremely impressed by how many posters choose to ignore the medical experts, respected crimonologists, and authors such as Stewart Evans, who have been researching these cases for years, as they are obviously far more knowledgeable.

However, just out of interest, perhaps Rocky and yourself would care to cite your relevant qualifications, so that posters can then make an objective decision on how much weight they should give to your opinions.

John, I dont give a monkeys on how much weight posters should give to my opinions. I'm far from being an expert in this field of "Ripperology", and have never professed to be one. For the record I do not put much weight on you opinions


The thing is you constantly ignore posters who you believe not to be experts, posters like Dane and Debora. Debora Arif (and I don't really want to bring Debora into this,) by her own admission has spent 10 years researching the Torso Murders, she has pointed out to you on a number of occasions that Liz Jackson's genitalia was mutilated.

Debora wrote

"Elizabeth Jackson-The flaps of skin and subcutaneous tissue consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons veneris the left labium majus, and labium minus The right piece included the rest of the mons veneris, the right labium majus and minus[in other word the external organs of generation], and part of the skin of the right buttock"

Being blunt the individual who dismembered Liz Jackson cut her doodah out. Now if the process of dismemberment was carried out as a means of easier disposal of the body, why the hell did he cut out this section of the body? There was no need to. Cutting that section out made dispersal a little harder, it had to be wrapped separately.

You wrote

"As for the Pinchin Torso being intended to parody or simulate the Whitechapel crimes: that was also the view of James Monro. Mind you, what did he know: he was only the police commissioner at the time!"

Blind faith in the experts again? I asked you some time ago if the Pinchin Street Torso were a parody of the Chapman murder why did the individual choose to dump the body parts in Pinchin Street, near to the Liz Stride site, and not close to the Chapman site. I did not receive an answer. Also, are we to believe that the "murderer" of the Pinchin Street "victim" was murdered to order? That is the "murderer" purposely sought out a victim on the anniversary of the Chapman murder, and killed and dumped her to "parody" the anniversary of Chapmans murder? Fantasy indeed, in my opinion.

[Abby Normal]

To Dane

I think we simply don't know as regards having sex with the prostitutes. But even if it was proved The Torso Killer didn't have intercourse with the prostitutes the possibility still remains that The Torso Killer performed sex acts with the heads.

Cheers John

agree. and the ripper probably used the organs for same.