Different Killers

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

That would depend upon cut, severance of artery, flow rate, etc.

I am QUITE happy with the 12.46-12.56 estimate.

Cheers.
LC

Well at least the opinion wasn't given by Dr Bond, who thought Rose Mylett had strangled herself, or Dr Llewellyn, who failed to notice Polly had been mutilated.!

[Batman]

Hello Batman. Thanks.

Dr. Blackwell: "The deceased was lying on her left side . . . her legs were drawn up." ["Ultimate," p. 149.]

Cheers.
LC"

Okay.

Yes, there are some 'left side' claims and dispite the Coroner asking the following...

Lewis Dienishitz
[Coroner] How was she lying? - On her left side, with her face towards the club wall.
[Coroner] Was the whole of the body resting on the side? - No, I should say only her face. I cannot say how much of the body was sideways. I did not notice what position her hands were in, but when the police came I observed that her bodice was unbuttoned near the neck. The doctor said the body was quite warm.

... since he is not the medical expert, the medical experts view should be taken.

As a note, we know from Lewis' that he poked at the body and tried to lift it with his horse whip before checking it out.

So I accept, left side is likely.

Does it contradict Schwartz? I don't think so. Does it contradict JtR? In one way yes and in another not. The standard MO/signature was flat on their back. However... Stride appears to be posed somewhat. If you accept the sweets in her hand are odd, the posing of them seems a solution. Her pose shared something in common with the others. How relaxed and at peace she looked. The fetal position for her, but still the same. Yet she wasn't mutilated. So maybe thats why the signature deviated.

Basically for me Lynn its like this....the difference between Schwartz's account and Liz's body is at best less than 12 feet apart. If there was a brick wall behind her, then fine, it would take two people to lift her over, or drag her around. That would be a puzzle. Or how about a locked gate. Ahh, maybe even better. Who has the key? Here however the yard gate is wide open! Can a grown man move a protesting women from point A to point B, less than 12 feets, in a short period of time? I can't see 2 events here or a conspiracy. Just one man moving a protesting women through a gate. That's all.

[John G]

Hello John. Thanks.

That would depend upon cut, severance of artery, flow rate, etc.

I am QUITE happy with the 12.46-12.56 estimate.

Cheers.
LC

Okay.

Yes, there are some 'left side' claims and dispite the Coroner asking the following...

Lewis Dienishitz
[Coroner] How was she lying? - On her left side, with her face towards the club wall.
[Coroner] Was the whole of the body resting on the side? - No, I should say only her face. I cannot say how much of the body was sideways. I did not notice what position her hands were in, but when the police came I observed that her bodice was unbuttoned near the neck. The doctor said the body was quite warm.

... since he is not the medical expert, the medical experts view should be taken.

As a note, we know from Lewis' that he poked at the body and tried to lift it with his horse whip before checking it out.

So I accept, left side is likely.

Does it contradict Schwartz? I don't think so. Does it contradict JtR? In one way yes and in another not. The standard MO/signature was flat on their back. However... Stride appears to be posed somewhat. If you accept the sweets in her hand are odd, the posing of them seems a solution. Her pose shared something in common with the others. How relaxed and at peace she looked. The fetal position for her, but still the same. Yet she wasn't mutilated. So maybe thats why the signature deviated.

Basically for me Lynn its like this....the difference between Schwartz's account and Liz's body is at best less than 12 feet apart. If there was a brick wall behind her, then fine, it would take two people to lift her over, or drag her around. That would be a puzzle. Or how about a locked gate. Ahh, maybe even better. Who has the key? Here however the yard gate is wide open! Can a grown man move a protesting women from point A to point B, less than 12 feets, in a short period of time? I can't see 2 events here or a conspiracy. Just one man moving a protesting women through a gate. That's all.

Hi Batman,

But why deviate from signature with Stride, and then return to the same signature about an hour later with Eddowes? And isn't there an indication that Tabram and the other C5 were posed? At least that's what Keppel thought.

[Batman]

It appears he only poses that way if a sexual mutilation has occurred.

[John G]

It appears he only poses that way if a sexual mutilation has occurred.

But surely the argument in favour of Stride being a Ripper victim is that he didn't mutilate because he was disturbed. Are you arguing that JtR cuts his victims throats, then poses the body, then mutilates the victim before posing the body again, this time in a different way? That seems like a very odd signature to me, to say the least.

[Batman]

But surely the argument in favour of Stride being a Ripper victim is that he didn't mutilate because he was disturbed. Are you arguing that JtR cuts his victims throats, then poses the body, then mutilates the victim before posing the body again, this time in a different way? That seems like a very odd signature to me, to say the least.

If the victim is sexually mutilated Keppel suggests he poses them legs up and apart to maximize their humiliation to the public and shock them.

Since Stride was not mutilated that way he wouldn't have completed the above pose.

All C5 where technically posed. Relaxed and peaceful looking.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

You are suggesting that Liz, as she lay dying, left arm under her, felt the ground and found a tissue folded over on about a half dozen cachous?

Hi Lynn.

I don't suggest she felt the ground. What I was trying to convey was the involuntary action of the fingers curling, more especially in this case the thumb.

Had her hand fallen over the package of cachous which were already spilled on the ground. I'm thinking the package was laying between the thumb and forefinger, the action of her thumb curling may trap the package between the thumb and forefinger.

[Wickerman]

Another scenario might be that BS man propositioned her and she insulted the nasty Neanderthal and he took exception. Liz was known for her mouth wasn’t she? Anyway, BS realizes he’s foiled and goes on his drunken way, Schwarz and Pipeman scramble off and then the true altercation takes place.

I would tend to think along those lines, Swanson suggested allowance be made for this too.
Your "true altercation", if I read you correctly, is by the hand of another unknown male. This is what Swanson was alluding to, and I agree with that observation. I still wonder what happened to the man seen by PC Smith, who was he and where did he go?

[Wickerman]

Hello (again) Batman. Thanks.

"Okay so if the tissue is fine then it was never in the ground but got spilled. People hold stuff falling back."

The ONLY spillage came from the doctors. (See inquest.)

Hi Lynn.
I think that needs qualifying, it may be true that Blackwell spilled some as he retrieved the packet, but that does not dismiss the possibility that some had also been spilled from the package earlier in the fracas.

[Wickerman]

I would particularly welcome a discussion that revolves around '"parallel cuts"!

There is potential for controversy with the mutilation of Eddowes.
I see Dr Brown describing the appearance of a wound, but he offers no conjecture on how many cuts.
From his description I see two incisions, one superficial, one deep.

[John G]

There is potential for controversy with the mutilation of Eddowes.
I see Dr Brown describing the appearance of a wound, but he offers no conjecture on how many cuts.
From his description I see two incisions, one superficial, one deep.

Hi John,

Thanks for the information. Isn't it Lynn's contention that the parallel cuts, apparent in the Nichols and Chapman murders, are absent in the other C5, thus indicating different killers?

[lynn cates]

art work

Hello John. Thanks.

Yes, Stride is MUCH more likely a "JTR" job than Kate.

Parallel cuts? Music to my ears.

Just wish Jon Smythe could supply some of his great art work to reflect this.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

saving "JTR"

Hello Batman. Thanks.

OK, I think one big problem with Schwartz's story is having Liz thrown down but, no signs EXCEPT on the left side. And, even so, he must fell her a second time, as you say, 12 feet (or so) further west.

I am curious about why you wish to save BSM? Given your beliefs in a canonical "JTR," I should think you'd be glad to ignore the story?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

retire

Hello John. Your post #860 is after my own heart. You are a born investigator.

I just might retire from "JTR" and let you take care of things. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dropping

Hello Jon. Thanks for the clarification.

Hard to believe they dropped--at least until the doctors spilled them.

Cheers.
LC