Different Killers

[Michael W Richards]

Someone mentioned the fact that Liz appears to be waiting outside the club when the kitchen door was open and warmer climes inside..if she was invited there of course.

A simple answer might be that she was waiting for someone who told her to wait there just in case some conversations inside were a bit controversial for one, (Liz spoke some Yiddish apaprently, which would of course make her an excellent spy on that club), and there is a person who claimed to arrive back at the club via the gates at approximately the same time Liz Stride disappears from the "trustworthy' witnesses...the unaffiliated ones that is. Eagle.

If he went through the gates at 12:40, then he would have had to have seen Liz Stride on the way in. Notice his statement..."I couldn't be sure" that a body was there.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Fanny Mortimer also said that she found it very hard to believe that Mrs Diemshitz would not have heard any row in the passageway, and Fanny didn't reside on property that was operated by anarchists and wasn't married to the club steward.

There must always be a clear path to the truth before anything can be believed, in the case of the statements of anyone directly linked with the club, there is ample reason to wonder how much they tailored their statements to protect their livelihood.

Cheers

Hello Michael,

To use one of your favorite expressions, "there is zero evidence" that anyone in the club was involved in any sort of cover up. That whole argument is based entirely on speculation.

Fanny Mortimer was not in the club. Eagle and Mrs. Diemschitz were.

c.d.

[Batman]

Get back to reality this is The Whitechapel Murders of 1888 !

Where is the conclsuive evidence that all of the victims from 1888-1891 were all killed by the same hand?

This whole thread dismantled your hypothesis that the C5 is the result of multi killers.

You ignore their necks are not cut throats but slashes nearly severing the head. To you there all just cut throats.

You ignore they where all murdered while horizontal on the ground.

You ignore the attack between Stride and Eddowes occurs exactly if someone leaves Strides body and moves East at a walking pace. They will bump into Eddowes leaving the drunk tank.

You ignore the radial geoprofiling stemming from a central hot zone despite this model catching criminals.

You ignore that there is a correlation between the environmental conditions the killer kills in and the degree of mutilation.

You ignore that even modern serial killers throughout the ages have had MOs that deviate much more than the C5.

You ignore that you don't have a single precident for multiple lust killers killing this way. Not one.

You ignore that even copy cats don't have this degree of similarity.

You ignore they where mutilated from their right side except for MJK because the partition beside the bed was in the way.

If you stayed agnostic on the issue that is one thing. Instead you made the positive claim that it is multiple hands.

You haven't been able to explain away the above. Just denied without reason they happened. Your in denial over it all.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Michael,

To use one of your favorite expressions, "there is zero evidence" that anyone in the club was involved in any sort of cover up. That whole argument is based entirely on speculation.

Fanny Mortimer was not in the club. Eagle and Mrs. Diemschitz were.

c.d.

Im not sure I would use cover-up as the term Im looking for anyway cd, what we do know is that when Eagle said he went into the yard via the gates Liz had to be either in the passageway or just outside the gates, (if one believes Schwartz), and Fanny saw neither of them during her intermittent stops at the door to the street. She was also standing at that spot when Louis vehemently says he arrives, she saw or heard none of that. And at least 2 accounts from members inside the club directly contradict what Louis claims was his arrival time, and, it would seem, what followed immediately after.

If this was a cover up of sorts is a bit ragged, don't you think? Its only proof that some witnesses were either incorrect or that they lied. You may pick and choose whom you believe, but when I know there has to be error or deception I look for witnesses that had nothing at all to gain or lose by what they would say.

I don't imagine Fanny had any reason to lie. But I do imagine the club gained something beyond measure when Israel offers a gentile man offsite as the probable killer. And I know that 3 witnesses provides times that contradict Morris, Louis and Laves time, (with all of the previous three agreed on a particular time for the event in question)...all with something on the line. Continued Employment for one. How hard would you think someone with a paying job in that neighborhood might go to protect that income...even if you set aside for a minute the possibility that the socialist membership wanted to preserve a place they could voice their grievances.

As for different killers, Stride is a perfect example of how simple that answer is, its clear she wasn't killed by a man intent on serial mutilation by the physical evidence alone, and its clear by the circumstantial and eyewitness evidence that no case for any interruption can be made without any physical evidence support.

Which there is none of.

So....Stride was killed by someone who wanted her dead or grievously wounded, which is hardly the motive or calling card of a post mortem mutilator whose objectives begin with a murder, not end with one.



Cheers

[Batman]

Get back to reality this is The Whitechapel Murders of 1888 !

I find it more than hypocritical you have the following on your site and even banner.

The search to obtain the truth still goes on however the passage of time has not been kind to my 21st Century Investigation in relation to all of these murders which occurred 126 years ago.

You can't have your cake and not eat it too. You advertise 21st century investigation and then deny we should use it tools.

[Batman]

As for different killers, Stride is a perfect example of how simple that answer is, its clear she wasn't killed by a man intent on serial mutilation by the physical evidence alone, and its clear by the circumstantial and eyewitness evidence that no case for any interruption can be made without any physical evidence support.

Which there is none of.

So....Stride was killed by someone who wanted her dead or grievously wounded, which is hardly the motive or calling card of a post mortem mutilator whose objectives begin with a murder, not end with one.



Cheers

He shouted Lipski because Schwartz, a Jew, walked in on his attack. Schwartz described the frontal assault. There is frontal bruising in the autopsy report on her upper chest. One side of her coat caked in mud.

If you to pretend Stride is not a ripper victim explain how someone walking east from this crime scene wouldn't stumble upon Eddowes on her way out of the drunk tank.

You can't do it because its a bang on match for timing.

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

But interruptions can occur without there being any physical evidence that it did in fact take place. You seem to think that Jack would have somehow left a note saying that he did intend to mutilate but that something scared him off.

c.d.

[Errata]

He shouted Lipski because Schwartz, a Jew, walked in on his attack. Schwartz described the frontal assault. There is frontal bruising in the autopsy report on her upper chest. One side of her coat caked in mud.

If you to pretend Stride is not a ripper victim explain how someone walking east from this crime scene wouldn't stumble upon Eddowes on her way out of the drunk tank.

You can't do it because its a bang on match for timing.

Because their home was between the club and Mitre Square? That's a tough sell, arguing that they had to have been killed by the same man because a person heading in a specific direction from a specific crime scene would have, assuming their trajectory remained constant and they did not reach their destination before Mitre Sq. would have had a chance of running into the second victim. Especially given that we don't know that the killer of Stride in fact went east, we don't know how quickly he would have been moving, we don't know if he only went east a couple of blocks before heading North, and the fact that Eddowes was not exactly in a busy place, and it's insanely easy to miss each other by a single block.

The timing might be bang on, but that doesn't mean it happened that way. Way too many variables. And far too many unknowns.

[Wickerman]

Question - I think this might have been addressed before but if Liz were meeting someone could she have gone into the club to wait or was that against policy? I mean it is a cold night, it is late and she is a single woman in a bad neighborhood. Wouldn't the gentlemanly thing to do be to tell her to meet him inside?

c.d.

Hi C.D.
Is it likely though?, considering she was with another man that night at 11:00, in the Bricklayers Arms. Then seen at least once more with a man at 12:30 opposite Dutfields Yard.
Then at 12:45 she is waiting for another liaison with a Club member?

Lizzie has a busy schedule by those estimates.

I am inclined to think the 12:30 man seen by PC Smith did not go away.

[Batman]

Because their home was between the club and Mitre Square? That's a tough sell, arguing that they had to have been killed by the same man because a person heading in a specific direction from a specific crime scene would have, assuming their trajectory remained constant and they did not reach their destination before Mitre Sq.

The timing might be bang on, but that doesn't mean it happened that way. Way too many variables. And far too many unknowns.

So its just a coincidence?

The explanation for the move east is not homeward bound but radial from the hot zone in a place he hadn't killed before and then returned homeward though Goulston Street.

There would be more variation not less if the murders where not connected. You would see more deviations in all the variables you throw at it, hence why investigators concluded a double murder linked by timing, choice of victims, deeply slashed necks, similarity of suspects, antisemitic connections and the simple explanation of interruption for lack of mutilations. They got it right as the future has never brought forward anything remotely like this in the annuals of crime.

[chrismasonic]

some people are really making this sound a complicated chain of events...I quite often flitted between boozers in my years as a rummy...it really doesn't sound unusual at all that Liz visited different groups of friends (or whoever they may have been)

some people want to believe this canonical nonsense so much they just fill in the blanks...murdered horizontally, murdered from the right, he shouted this because...these are not facts

[Batman]

some people are really making this sound a complicated chain of events...I quite often flitted between boozers in my years as a rummy...it really doesn't sound unusual at all that Liz visited different groups of friends (or whoever they may have been)

some people want to believe this canonical nonsense so much they just fill in the blanks...murdered horizontally, murdered from the right, he shouted this because...these are not facts

Adding another killer is adding more complexity than is necessary and unprecedented.

The variables you believe are not facts, are, because they are in the pathology reports and commentary made by medical experts and the investigators.

[chrismasonic]

I don't believe any of that is true...I do believe that is your interpretation of details...that's not the same

[Batman]

I don't believe any of that is true...I do believe that is your interpretation of details...that's not the same

Your welcome to your opinion but a pathology report is a fact of the matter. What do you think its for? Decoration?

[lynn cates]

accuracy

Hello Jon.

"Lizzie has a busy schedule by those estimates."

Of course, it depends on the accuracy of those sightings.

Cheers.
LC