Different Killers

[chrismasonic]

He dropped his knife before he could continue...
He overheard voices and decided not to continue...
He got a bit of blood in his eye so he decided not to continue...
He got a text message...
His shoe came off...
He fell over...
it was too dark...
it was too light...

apart from the text message one, all could be reasons why Liz wasn't mutilated...

and another reason why could be she was arguing with some guys and one of them cut her throat...if that guy wasn't the ripper, she wasn't a ripper victim...

if that is indeed what happened then we are talking different killers...

[c.d.]

"and another reason why could be she was arguing with some guys and one of them cut her throat...if that guy wasn't the ripper, she wasn't a ripper victim..."

...but yet Swanson's report talks about the possibility of just such a thing, a killer other than the B.S. man.

c.d.

[chrismasonic]

Schwartz's statement is full of holes...it was translated

[c.d.]

Don't you think that Swanson knew about the translation problem? Still he discussed the possibility of another killer in his report.

c.d.

[Batman]

There is a thread on her I started called Pipeman Cleared.

Paul Begg wrote about this possibility and gives reasons why. Seems they hauled in plenty of people over this incident.

[J6123]

What you are obviously skipping over is that by making 2 severe cuts he cut BOTH major arteries in the neck completely, ensuring both a quicker death and less blood in the organs and tissues when he makes the PM cuts.

Seems like the killer of Polly and Annie wanted more than just to murder... by the evidence...and it seems in the Stride case..by the evidence... that death was the only goal.

cheers

Yes you could be right about Stride. However, it could also be that the killer was disturbed by the man who found her body, otherwise Stride might have ended up looking a lot more like Eddowes. It can't be ruled out.

[chrismasonic]

Don't you think that Swanson knew about the translation problem? Still he discussed the possibility of another killer in his report.

c.d.

i'm really not sure...I just think it's unwise to hang on the exact wording of the statements...both of his versions of events were translated and information has probably been lost

however I do think the guys he saw were responsible for the murder...

[Harry D]

If BS man wasn't Stride's killer, then we have a 15min window of opportunity for real murderer to step in. That was enough time to commit the murder, but what are the chances that JTR happened to be chancing by that part of Whitechapel as a woman was being attacked? I'm not committing myself, either way, because I too agree that BS man's actions are not evidently 'Ripper-like', i.e. attacking a woman outside a busy social club in full view of witnesses and shouting across the street.

[John G]

Hello John,

We have no way of knowing if Eagle and Diemschitz could have heard anything over the noise from the club but since they are telling the police that they felt they could have, take that for what you think it's worth.

As for Liz identifying the B.S. man, how could she have identified him as the Ripper if he only pushed her?

c.d.

Hello C.d,

I think an important consideration for the club is that they would not want to admit to the possibility that someone heard, or could have heard, Stride's calls for help but failed to act. And, considering Dr Philips' comments about the likely reaction of locals to a cry for help, coupled with the empirical evidence of Diemshitz's and Kozebrodsky's alarm calls attracting the attention of just one member of the public, that possibility cannot be ruled out.

It should be remembered that the club had a chiefly Jewish membership and I think that, with some justification, they would have feared the possibility of a racial backlash if it was even suspected that anyone from the club had failed to come to Stride's assistance. This would surely be even more likely when you consider what happened subsequently: Eddowes murder, leaving most people in little doubt that Stride was a Ripper victim, and the Goulston Street graffito, strongly imply a Jewish suspect.

Regarding Liz identifying BS man, if he was JtR he would already have committed at least 2 horrific murders, so I don't think he would have been relishing the possibility of a police investigation, particularly if Stride referred to being threatened with a knife, which could have lead to serious charges of assault with a deadly weapon. Moreover, having commenced the assault maybe he felt compelled by instinct to kill her.

Of course, BS man may not have killed Stride, but that surely depends on whether you believe Schwartz. and the police clearly did. Otherwise, your left the completely unlikely solution that Stride was attacked by 2 different men, in virtually the same location, within the space of just a few minutes. What's more, having been assaulted by assailant number 1, I hardly think it likely that she would remain rooted to the same spot until assailant number 2 came along some minutes later! Surely she would have been far more likely to flea the scene or seek refuge and assistance in the nearby club.

[lynn cates]

Scotch, please.

Hello John.

"In my opinion, therefore, the rarity of this type of crime is sufficient to prove, on balance of probability, that the C5 victims plus Tabram were murdered by a single killer."

And by that reasoning, ALL 50 year old single malt comes from the same distillery in Scotland.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

dead on target

Hello CD.

"Full-frontal assault" would seem to be a gross exaggeration of what Schwartz described which was simply a woman being thrown to the ground.

You would also have to wonder why the B.S. man would go on to kill Liz after being seen by Schwartz and the Pipe Man. A reasonable assumption on the part of the B.S. man would be that Schwartz ran off to find the nearest policeman.

If Liz was struggling for her life, how did she manage to hold on to the cachous?

Also, no one at the club heard any argument or noise which seems a bit strange."

All dead on target.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

gold star

Hello (again) CD.

"You say that there was the possibility that Liz could identify the B.S. man but the question is identify him as what, the man who pushed her? Does it make sense that the B.S. man would rather kill her which is a hanging offense rather than be identified as the man who pushed her for which I doubt he would get more than just a don't do that again lecture."

Gold star time.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

scarfing it down

Hello John.

"Blackwell argued that Stride could have been strangled with the scarf . . ."

You mean taken down?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

alien concept

Hello Chris. Bingo!

(Did you forget about the presence of aliens? heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

generous

Hello Harry. Your 15 minute window might be a tad generous.

Liz likely died around 12.45.

Cheers.
LC