Different Killers

[Errata]

Hello Errata. Thanks.

So, perhaps it is not due to variation in anatomy?

But shaken? Quite possibly. He really bungled with the intestines and got faecal material everywhere.

Cheers.
LC

Yeah. There's no proof of anatomical variation, but of course we would have to have the uterus to know for sure. The cervix was left, and it's possible the coroner didn't mention a variation because there was none. It's also possible he didn't mention it because it wasn't relevant. Like I said, 1 in 4 or 5 women have one, so it's not some glaring rarity. It matters exactly twice in a woman's life, and neither of those situation were at hand.

The fecal matter probably came from when he cut above the cervix, and all things considered that should have been one of the last cuts. And he didn't even so much as graze the bladder, so that's a big uptick in skill from Chapman. But hitting the colon was probably slightly more inevitable than the bladder. But that likely happened when he was almost done.

The intestines could have had chyme in them maybe. It's the slurry that nutrients are sucked out of before it becomes feces in the colon. Not that getting sprayed with chyme is a happy fun time, but I would think he ran the same risk with Chapman.

I think that if something freaked him out, it was after the removal of the kidney. That seemed like solid work. And it could have been anything. I don't know if you've ever had your nerves wound super tight, but a cat knocking a lid off a trash can could cause a reaction similar to a bomb going off nearby. I mean almost passing out from fright. It takes about 30 minutes to recover, which he clearly didn't have, so he would have been shaky all through the removal of the uterus. But if I were to guess, I would put it after separating the uterus from the bladder. It may be why he cut the colon. He was startled. Now his entry into the abdomen was not seamless. There is either a random stab or a skip. I tend to think it's a skip. He was already more nervous at that point than he was when cutting her throat. I am intimately familiar with all the things that can happen with a knife when you're shaking. I have an essential tremor. I don't think he was shaking when he cut her open. I think he was rushed. I think he felt like he was running out of time.

And unless he had been there before (and there's no reason he would have really) he couldn't have known how many entrances to Mitre Square there actually were. And there were several. That may have made him very nervous. Also knowing he was in a patrolled area would have raised his hackles. So whether this was his first murder or his fourth, he was going in at a disadvantage. And he cut her throat while standing. Which is a real sort of "down to business" move. He was paring off parts of his ritual. it feels lie he knew he had a time crunch. Which makes the facial mutilations so bizarre. He wouldn't have done it unless he absolutely had to. And there are a couple of reasons why he might have had to, but it's still weird. And obviously he worked quickly. Quickly enough to affect his knife work, at least on her flesh. When we get to the organs we see care. So he's not rushing at that point. If he was there were faster ways to get both a kidney and a uterus. But something happened, and he screwed up the last part of removing the uterus, and he severed the colon.

I would say he was wound freakishly tight. And at some point something startled him and he just flipped out for a second, and didn't have time to recover.

[Ausgirl]

Thanks, Lynn

Professor Trow thought that the deescalation after Kelly was due to infirmity.

--It's possible, I think - mental or physical. Perhaps it started with Eddowes.

No. Her daughter stoutly denied it. You might like to read my last article on Kate's last 72 hours in which many of these events are put into order. (And it's FREE from Rip.)

--I will do. She must have gotten the money for her drinks somewhere, though, right? Enough to get as drunk as she was.

Which club would this be, then?

--I was thinking the Imperial? If she was in the area, selling herself, it'd make sense to hang about the late-night places where men were gathered. Prostitutes do much the same thing to this day (says the habits of the hookers in my old neighbourhood).

Well, as Gavin Bromley pointed out years ago, it makes no sense to have "JTR" leave Berner in a craze, non dum satiatis, and "winding up" in Mitre, only to claim later that he was fully aware of Mitre, etc.

-- I honestly don't think Stride was a Ripper victim. So I haven't factored her case her into any of my arguments.

Well, that makes two of us. Those who testified at inquest downplayed the frequency. Not so our modern day "experts."

-- I'm wondering whether old court cases or jail records from the period might help get a better picture of that. Where's there's low-class hookers, there's drugs, alcohol, fights. Dunno, might be worth a look through for mention of the square.

Absolutely. See? We agree.

-- Right. So how do you account for the killer choosing that place anyway? It has to be either sheer opportunity or a choice. If a choice - I have to wonder why.


And don't forget, he needed to know that Watkins was walking reverse beat that night.

-- Would a few minutes' observation of Watkins have sorted that out? He had plenty of time to observe the traffic of cops and watchmen in the area, if indeed the location was important to him in any way.

How about, Someone wished Kate dead and quietly subsumed by the "Leather Apron" killings?

Someone like Kelly? Was he that smart? Why not just leave her? Why not just cut her throat and run? The mutilations represent enormous risk of discovery, every moment spent is another moment someone might walk by. That sort of risk is taken by people who are intensely invested in the actions concerned. Wanting her dead, and the Ripper blamed, could have been achieved with a cut throat, the end.

I mean, look at Stride.

[lynn cates]

disgust

Hello Errata. Thanks.

I tend to think panic--and disgust--came when he got his hands dirty.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

What Mitre been

Hello Ausgirl. Thanks.

LOVE to discuss that article. Several odd facts in it.

"She must have gotten the money for her drinks somewhere, though, right? Enough to get as drunk as she was."

Or someone was buying?

Imperial Club? Could be. But if she were soliciting, would she not be directly outside the club? Or do you mean she had found a client there and were THEN going to the square?

"I honestly don't think Stride was a Ripper victim. So I haven't factored her case her into any of my arguments."

Ah! that's good. Of course, Baxter thought her MORE likely than Kate.

Research for Mitre? Sound good. An odd place to find such things lies in anecdotal stories.

I think Mitre was CHOSEN. But, before I commit, I need evidence.

"Why not just leave her? Why not just cut her throat and run?"

I think this is a good argument. Of course, mutilations would cinch it. Not to mention he may have borne great hatred for her.

"The mutilations represent enormous risk of discovery, every moment spent is another moment someone might walk by."

Unless he had ALL the relevant data.

Cheers.
LC

[Ausgirl]

And he cut her throat while standing.

Errata: where'd you get this? Wasn't it thought at the time that she was prone?

[J6123]

Have the people invoking more than one 'Ripper' factored in the unlikeliness of two MO-sharing prostitute-killing postmortem-mutilating sexual serial killers operating in the same small area at the same time, who also both stopped killing at the same time?

I believe in a lone killer who had 5 victims at the least, who's primary goal escalated into what was seen at Miller's Court, just outright destruction of women, which he got off on sexually, and he didn't have anything to do with women otherwise. A loner who didn't have relationships with women, and who at the very least was curious about female anatomy, and who's mental state may have deteriorated over the course of the murders, and who might have come under some suspicion if he had been living with anyone.

I know there's always an exception to the rule, but I think the Kelly murder enables us to realise he either died or was incarcerated afterwards.

[Ausgirl]

Lynn, I plan on using my time this morning to have a good read over the article. If my dicky internet will ever allow the page to load...

Are you one of those people with a die-hard suspect? It's useful to know, before entering a discussion as I come from the realm of "no idea" and this makes it hard to get on the same page at times. Internet notwithstanding.

[GUT]

Have the people invoking more than one 'Ripper' factored in the unlikeliness of two MO-sharing prostitute-killing postmortem-mutilating sexual serial killers operating in the same small area at the same time, who also both stopped killing at the same time?

I believe in a lone killer who had 5 victims at the least, who's primary goal escalated into what was seen at Miller's Court, just outright destruction of women, which he got off on sexually, and he didn't have anything to do with women otherwise. A loner who didn't have relationships with women, and who at the very least was curious about female anatomy, and who's mental state may have deteriorated over the course of the murders, and who might have come under some suspicion if he had been living with anyone.

I know there's always an exception to the rule, but I think the Kelly murder enables us to realise he either died or was incarcerated afterwards.

Whilst I in general agree, why "stopped killing at the same time" there were a number of murders post Kelly that were included by the police as ripper victims that occurred in Whitechapel and many more in other countries that were speculated as being at the same hand as the C5.

[Ausgirl]

No luck finding Lynn's article... and the mag's website's down it seems. Can anyone help with a link?

[Errata]

And he cut her throat while standing.

Errata: where'd you get this? Wasn't it thought at the time that she was prone?

It's one of the great mysteries of the blood evidence. If there is no blood on the front, they could not possibly have been standing when they were killed. And they knew that back then. So it becomes curious when various people testifying at the inquest speak in terms of her "falling". There are a couple of ways to cut a throat without blood dripping down the throat. And blood from her face must have obscured the throat some. I think they didn't know. And I think that they didn't know means that likely she was upright when she died.

[Ausgirl]

It's one of the great mysteries of the blood evidence. If there is no blood on the front, they could not possibly have been standing when they were killed. And they knew that back then. So it becomes curious when various people testifying at the inquest speak in terms of her "falling". There are a couple of ways to cut a throat without blood dripping down the throat. And blood from her face must have obscured the throat some. I think they didn't know. And I think that they didn't know means that likely she was upright when she died.

With the greatest respect, I'm going to eyeball this a while.

[lynn cates]

assumptions

Hello J. Why must they be serial killers? And how do we know about prostitutes?

Finally, why must we assume the killer/s read a social science text?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

suspect

Hello Ausgirl. Thanks.

I believe Jacob Isenschmid killed Polly and Annie. I believe it likely that these two killings were largely accidental.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

good point

Hello GUT.

"Whilst I in general agree, why "stopped killing at the same time" there were a number of murders post Kelly that were included by the police as ripper victims that occurred in Whitechapel and many more in other countries that were speculated as being at the same hand as the C5."

Good point.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

copy

Hello Ausgirl. If you cannot find the article, just PM me your email address and I'll try to forward a copy.

Cheers.
LC