Different Killers

[John G]

Hi John



Agreed, Schwartz doesn`t mention her eating them, but she could be holding them, which seems likely as they are found in her hand.



I`ve highlighted the bit in the police version that matches the Star version: The man TRIED to pull the woman into the street BUT he turned her around and threw her down on the footway.
So, he didn`t pull the woman into the street, he tried to. This matches with the Star`s version of pushing her into the passageway.



I don't think the reference to pipeman holding a knife is accepted by many.



Where do you get the bit about Stride standing up after being assaulted and taking out a cashous and BS Man standing menacingly nearby?

Hi Jon,

I don't agree that the Police Report can be easily reconciled with the Star article. You argue that the Police Report's reference to "footway" implies that she was pushed into the passageway. I don't see this and Begg, 2004, p157 clearly concludes that "footway" refers to the pavement outside of the gates.
In any event, footway clearly cannot refer to some distance inside the gate, i.e. where Stride's body was found.

If, therefore, you are to argue that Stride retained the cachous in her hand from the time of the initial assault witnessed by Scwartz, which is unsupported by Scwartz's evidence, as he makes no mention of the cachous, up to time of her death, then this would mean that she would have to have clung on to them during the initial attack, during the period that BS man saw off Pipeman and Schwartz, during a second, and surely far more violent, assault which would presumably involve her being dragged or forced some distance into the yard, and during the period when she was forced to the ground and her throat cut. None of this seems very likely to me.

[John G]

John

Have you not considered the view that Schwartz may have seen Stride actually been murdered, and just not been aware of it ?

Hi Jon,

If I've understood you correctly you seem to be presenting a novel argument. Are you suggesting that Stride was killed before Scwartz was scared off? This would clearly have to be after "the women [Stride] screamed three times, not very loudly."

However, if that's correct this would mean she was killed on the footway. But surely all the evidence points to Stride having been killed inside the gate of Dutfield's Yard. And if she was killed outside the Yard why would her killer then pull her into the Yard? I mean, that would only work if her killer was JtR and needed to get her off the street, into the darkness of Dutfield's Yard, in order to mutilate the body, as an ordinary killer would surely flee as soon as he'd slit her throat. Mind you, just a minute...

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

I don't agree that the Police Report can be easily reconciled with the Star article. You argue that the Police Report's reference to "footway" implies that she was pushed into the passageway. I don't see this and Begg, 2004, p157 clearly concludes that "footway" refers to the pavement outside of the gates..

I argue that BS Man tried to pull her into the street but instead turned her around and pushed her into the passageway (where she was later found dead and which matches the Star report)
Was there a worn footway along the club wall leading to the side door?

In any event, footway clearly cannot refer to some distance inside the gate, i.e. where Stride's body was found.

Some distance?
Her feet were 3 or 4ft from the entrance?
That`s one or two strides or one good push.

If, therefore, you are to argue that Stride retained the cachous in her hand from the time of the initial assault witnessed by Scwartz, which is unsupported by Scwartz's evidence.

Would Schwartz be able to see the cachous in her hand ?

, , then this would mean that she would have to have clung on to them during the initial attack,.

Initial attack?
What evidence do you have of another attack?
But yes, she held them tightly in her hand.

during the period that BS man saw off Pipeman and Schwartz, during a second, ,.

a second ...
Evidence ?

and surely far more violent, assault which would presumably involve her being dragged or forced some distance into the yard, ,.

Again, some distance ? One push would cover the 3 or 4 yards. or we can go with what Schwartz described, a man throwing a woman down.

[lynn cates]

Do you have the time?

Hello Trevor. Thanks.

What is your suggested time?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

timing

Hello Batman.

1. There is no doubt that people grasp things in death. She certainly did.

2. There are normal reasons why one would put a sweet in one's mouth.

On the other hand, you seem oblivious to my and John's reasoning.

Consider this. Some brute attacks his wife and begins to pummel her. A right to the jaw, a left to the nose--blood begins to spurt. Suddenly she cries out, "Say, I could use a fag just now." The blows cease, she produces a pack and retrieves one, placing it between her lips. "Got a light?" she asks. "Of course, my dear." Lights it. "Now, where were we? Ah, yes!" And the fisticuffs resumes.

See what we mean?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

signs

Hello (again) Batman. IF Liz had dropped them:

1. The tissue would show it.

2. If she had been on her back, her dress would show it.

Very simple equation.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

discovery

Hello John. There can be little doubt that Liz was discovered only slightly before 1.00, But that does not tell us when she died.

Cheers.
LC

[John G]

Hi John



I argue that BS Man tried to pull her into the street but instead turned her around and pushed her into the passageway (where she was later found dead and which matches the Star report)
Was there a worn footway along the club wall leading to the side door?



Some distance?
Her feet were 3 or 4ft from the entrance?
That`s one or two strides or one good push.



Would Schwartz be able to see the cachous in her hand ?



Initial attack?
What evidence do you have of another attack?
But yes, she held them tightly in her hand.



a second ...
Evidence ?




Again, some distance ? One push would cover the 3 or 4 yards. or we can go with what Schwartz described, a man throwing a woman down.

Hi Jon,

I would give preference to the police report rather than the Star article. For one thing, the Star report seems embellished to me, for instance, reference to the other man having a knife rather than a pipe, possibly to make Scwartz appear less cowardly. And I think the police report clearly indicates that Stride was attacked outside the gates- Begg and Bennet (2012) refer to the pavement.

Stride must have been attacked twice if Scwartz be believed, Firstly, when she was thrown down onto the pavement (an assault at common law) and, secondly, after Scwartz's departure when her killer slit her throat.

I still consider it unlikely that she would have successfully held onto the cachous during this full period (that's assuming they were in her and at all, for which there is no evidence). I mean, she would have to have clung onto them during the period she was thrown to the ground, whilst BS man was seeing off Scwartz and Pipeman, and during the period when her killer returned to the attack, pushing her or dragging her into the yard.

Moreover, why did no one in the cub hear all this commotion? In particular Mrs D, who was supposedly sat just feet away, in the kitchen with the window open.

[lynn cates]

After you, my dear.

Hello Abby.

"However, if she wasn't holding them during the attack that Schwartz witnessed, perhaps she took them out afterwards, when she finally agrees to accompany BS man into the alley."

What kind of fool would willingly accompany her former attacker into a dark passageway?

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Consider this. Some brute attacks his wife and begins to pummel her. A right to the jaw, a left to the nose--blood begins to spurt. Suddenly she cries out, "Say, I could use a fag just now." The blows cease, she produces a pack and retrieves one, placing it between her lips. "Got a light?" she asks. "Of course, my dear." Lights it. "Now, where were we? Ah, yes!" And the fisticuffs resumes.

See what we mean?

Cheers.
LC

Nobody is proposing that Lynn.

We have her sweets out in hand, one in mouth before JtR or Schwartz even arrive. Not everyone pockets them right away. Maybe have another in a minute.

It has never been a contemporary or modern issue at all.

[lynn cates]

gaps

Hello Batman.

"'Give us a sweet love?'
'No, these are mi...'
Wham!
Still clutching what she thinks he is trying to steal. Full club next door. Someone is bound to come out. Whooosh... this guy was too quick and his motive all together someone else... and then he is gone."

This might work fine IF it were on the street AND he approached her from behind. But he did not.

You need to fill in the gaps.

Cheers.
LC

[Batman]

Hello (again) Batman. IF Liz had dropped them:

1. The tissue would show it.

2. If she had been on her back, her dress would show it.

Very simple equation.

Cheers.
LC

1. Okay so if the tissue is fine then it was never in the ground but got spilled. People hold stuff falling back.

2. She was discovered on her back. So she must have been on her back at one point.

Philips - The body was lying on the near side, with the face turned toward the wall, the head up the yard and the feet toward the street. The left arm was extended and there was a packet of cachous in the left hand.

[Batman]

Hello Batman.

"'Give us a sweet love?'
'No, these are mi...'
Wham!
Still clutching what she thinks he is trying to steal. Full club next door. Someone is bound to come out. Whooosh... this guy was too quick and his motive all together someone else... and then he is gone."

This might work fine IF it were on the street AND he approached her from behind. But he did not.

You need to fill in the gaps.

Cheers.
LC

What gap? 5 feet to the gate? That gap?

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

I would give preference to the police report rather than the Star article. For one thing, the Star report seems embellished to me, for instance, reference to the other man having a knife rather than a pipe, possibly to make Scwartz appear less cowardly. .

I too, give preference to the Police statement.
Agreed, the pipe/knife thing is silly

And I think the police report clearly indicates that Stride was attacked outside the gates- Begg and Bennet (2012) refer to the pavement..

Here I disagree, as I have shown.
But you have chosen well in Begg and Bennett.

Stride must have been attacked twice if Scwartz be believed, Firstly, when she was thrown down onto the pavement (an assault at common law) and, secondly, after Scwartz's departure when her killer slit her throat..

You are describing one attack.
Example:BS Man walks down Berner St, approaches Stride and begins throwing her about. BS Man then notices Schwartz as the Hungarian crosses the street near the gates to avoid them. BS Man insults Schwartz who runs away, and then BS Man slits Stride`s throat and walks off.

I still consider it unlikely that she would have successfully held onto the cachous during this full period ..

That`s fair enough, but just as long as you are aware that people do hang on to things.

(that's assuming they were in her and at all, for which there is no evidence).
..

Well.... they were found in her hand on death.
Unless you think it more likely that the killer placed them in her hand after cutting her throat. Surely not.

I mean, she would have to have clung onto them during the period she was thrown to the ground, ..

So she wouldn`t make a fist around them and just batter whomever was pushing her about ?

whilst BS man was seeing off Scwartz and Pipeman, and during the period when her killer returned to the attack, pushing her or dragging her into the yard...

Chase away ?
All BS Man did was look up at Schwartz and shout "Lipski".

Moreover, why did no one in the cub hear all this commotion? In particular Mrs D, who was supposedly sat just feet away, in the kitchen with the window open.

Mrs D was upstairs wasn`t she, where all the singing and drinking was ?
I thought that on finding the body Diemschutz ran up the stairs to find his wife ?

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello John.

"However, if that's correct this would mean she was killed on the footway. But surely all the evidence points to Stride having been killed inside the gate of Dutfield's Yard. And if she was killed outside the Yard why would her killer then pull her into the Yard?"

Quite.

Cheers.
LC