Different Killers

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello John. Your post #798 is the whole nub of the matter.

If someone can ever give a realistic answer, then BSM becomes the likely killer.

Cheers.
LC

But not if the death occurred much earlier than everyone seems to suggest !

The current timings are reliant on the accuracy on the witnesses who supposedly saw her prior to her death, and the time of death estimated by the doctor, which we already know is questionable !

As i said in a previous post the witness testimony has to be taken on face value it has not been tested. It may be accurate it may not. But sadly researchers seem to want to accept it as being the gospel.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Batman]

Hello John. Thanks.

The time is VERY consistent with the Schwartz story. (The doctors said she died between 12.46 and 12.56.) In fact, I consider that another reason why Israel's story was concocted by 2 or 3 higher echelon club members.

Did Spooner have a way to fix the time?

Cheers.
LC

That's a conspiracy theory.

[Batman]

I don't think the sweets are a mystery

If pathologists aren't surprised to find stuff in the hands of dead people who have fallen over, been shot the head on the battlefield, after impact from a suicide jump, after a car crash, an overdose, then why should we be surprised?

They weren't.

Neither are they today.

The fact is you are treating Stride like a dead object, without muscles, nerves, skin, bone, all of these combine into a gripping mechanism on an evolved complex being.

We hold stuff in life. We hold it in death. Impacts dont always dislodge everything.

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

I think the difficulty is trying to reconcile things from the perspective of Stride being killed by BS man..

Not for me.

If she was eating the cachous when first thrown to the ground, isn't it likely that she would have dropped them at that point? ..

Well, it does appear that she did hold onto them when her throat was cut. But why would she drop them? It`s easy enough to use the heel of the palm as support whilst shaped in a fist. Perhaps she used her other hand as support when she landed.

However, Scwartz makes no mention of Stride eating the cachous.

But she could still be holding them when BS Man approaches her.
Why couldn`t she have had one when she was standing alone in the gateway watching BS Man approach her ? A good time to eat one , I would say?

This creates major difficulties, because after just being thrown to the ground by BS man, she's hardly likely to be relaxed enough to stand up and then take out a packet of cachous, and then start eating them (in fact, she might not even have the chance if he recommenced the assault after seeing of Scwartz and Pipeman.) .

Did she get up after Schwartz saw her being thrown to the ground ?

If this happened I feel that BS man, if he was her killer, would have to have calmed her down in some way prior to luring her into the yard.

Doesn`t he just push her three feet back into the passageway ?
In fact, Schwartz tells us this happened.

[Batman]

Exactly.

Here is another scenario.

She drops them while on her back and tries to get back up grabbing them before sitting up and then he pulls the knife while she is on the way up, sweets in hand.

[John G]

Hello,

I've been considering the possibility of Joseph Lave being a suspect. Consider this speculative scenario. He was involved in a brief relationship with Stride. However, Stride decides to end the relationship- She's going back to Kidney. However, Lave doesn't take rejection well so he puts into place an audacious plan to murder her.

He asks Stride to meet him one last time in order to say goodbye. He tells her to be outside the gates of the club for around 12:40 (he can't ask her to meet him inside the club because she's not a member and, moreover, their relationship is a secret one.)

At around 12:40 he leaves the club, something he testifies to, supposedly to avoid the smoke (he even admits going as far as the gate). Stride is waiting with her back to the gate, nonchalantly eating the cachous. Lave stealthily creeps up behind her- by his own evidence the yard was cloaked in darkness, so this would surely be achievable.) He then catches her completely unawares, grabbing her by the neck, or scarf, from behind, and propelling her into the yard, where she drops some of the cachous. He then slits her throat, returning to the club around 12:45, which he admits to doing.

However, unfortunately this theory, as neat as it is, has many problems. Firstly, it's clearly incompatible with Scwartz's evidence. Secondly, Lave had only just arrived in London, giving him little time to form a relationship with Stride, let alone the sort of crime passionnel that would lead to murder.
More importantly, I feel the evidence points to a significant later time of death, i.e. around 1:00am as indicated by Louis and Morris.

Thus, Edward Spooner, who I regard as a crucial witness regarding establishing likely time of death, estimated that he arrived at the scene of crime around 12:35, at which point he said there was still blood gushing from Stride's neck, surely indicating that she had only been recently killed.

However, how reliable is this time estimate? Well, he was obviously very uncertain of the time. At the inquest he recalled being alerted to what had occurred by shouts of "murder" and "police" called out by "two Jews". He was standing outside the Beehive pub at the time, as he stated in evidence:"On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive public house, at the corner of Christian Street with my young women." The clear implication, therefore, is that it could have been as late as one o'clock before he was alerted.

What about Dr Blackwell's evidence? He checked his watch upon arrival, and the time was 1:16. He estimated that at this time she had been dead approximately 20 minutes to half an hour, which would suggest she was murdered between 12:46 and 12:56. But is this correct? As Trevor has rightly indicated we must be cautious when accepting the evidence of Victorian GPs.

Happily, there is a way out of this conundrum and it is in the form of the crucial evidence of PC Lamb. This constable was alerted to what had happened by Morris Eagle-Spooner had been alerted by Diemshitz and Kozebridsky who had run off in the opposite direction at the same time as Eagle, shouting "police" and "murder". However, PC Lamb estimated that the time was shortly before 1:00am, which would suggest that he got to the yard around or just after 1:00am, and this must surely have broadly coincided with Spooner's arrival time. True, he didn't have a watch, but he would surely be better at estimating the time than Spooner; I believe that as a beat officer he was supposed to be at certain stages of his beat at certain times in case his sergeant needed to contact him.

What, however, I think is the decisive piece of evidence regarding time of death is the fact that, at the inquest, Lamb testified that upon his arrival he put his hand to Stride's face and it was "slightly warm." Now consider what Dr Blackwell had to say when he checked the body at 1:16: "The neck and chest were quite warm, as were also the legs, and the face was slightly warm."

In other words, if Lamb had actually arrived at the yard close to 12:45, when Stride's face was "slightly warm", is it conceivable that it would still be slightly warm when Dr Blackwell would have arrived almost half an hour later? I think not.

I would therefore submit that, in accordance with Louis's and Morris's evidence, Stride's body was discovered close to one o'clock. And that Spooner's evidence, that blood was still gushing from her neck upon his arrival, strongly suggests that she had only recently been killed.

[Abby Normal]

Hi John



Not for me.




Well, it does appear that she did hold onto them when her throat was cut. But why would she drop them? It`s easy enough to use the heel of the palm as support whilst shaped in a fist. Perhaps she used her other hand as support when she landed.



But she could still be holding them when BS Man approaches her.
Why couldn`t she have had one when she was standing alone in the gateway watching BS Man approach her ? A good time to eat one , I would say?



Did she get up after Schwartz saw her being thrown to the ground ?



Doesn`t he just push her three feet back into the passageway ?
In fact, Schwartz tells us this happened.

totally agree with this and batman

The caschous are a red herring. she simply held on to them.

However, if she wasn't holding them during the attack that Schwartz witnessed, Perhaps she took them out afterwards, when she finally agrees to accompany BS man into the alley.

[Batman]

If you smoke you eat these to make your breath taste better. If you have been kissing strangers they probably aren't a bad idea to eat either. If you have had a few drinks they might make you seem a little more sober when you speak to people rather than having gin breath.

Do people eat sweets standing on street? Yes. What is the purpose of having them out? Well you have to take them out to eat one.

'Give us a sweet love?'
'No, these are mi...'
Wham!
Still clutching what she thinks he is trying to steal. Full club next door. Someone is bound to come out. Whooosh... this guy was too quick and his motive all together someone else... and then he is gone.

Here is why Schwartz is a great witness - http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...&postcount=121

[Ausgirl]

Just a shout out to John G., I've been enjoying your posts immensely.

And Batman - thank you for the post about victims holding things. I've been dubious, but only because I for some reason had my head up my backside about Stride's case in particular and just how common it is for murder victims to be holding something.

I maintain that it's probably just as common for killers to place objects around their victims, for reasons known only to themselves. But really, it just seems sensible here to err on the side of not-staged.

[John G]

Hi John



Not for me.




Well, it does appear that she did hold onto them when her throat was cut. But why would she drop them? It`s easy enough to use the heel of the palm as support whilst shaped in a fist. Perhaps she used her other hand as support when she landed.



But she could still be holding them when BS Man approaches her.
Why couldn`t she have had one when she was standing alone in the gateway watching BS Man approach her ? A good time to eat one , I would say?



Did she get up after Schwartz saw her being thrown to the ground ?



Doesn`t he just push her three feet back into the passageway ?
In fact, Schwartz tells us this happened.

Hi Jon,

I think there are a few problems with this scenario. Firstly, Scwartz doesn't mention Stride eating the cachous, even though his evidence is otherwise pretty detailed.

Also there are, of course, two versions of Scwartz's evidence. According to the official police report, "The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned round a threw her down on the footway a the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly."

It is the Star's version of Scwartz's evidence that states she was pushed into the passage. However, the Star also refers to the second man holding a knife, rather than a pipe. That suggests to me that this is an embellished and sensationalised version of what had happened. Even if you give preference to the Star's version of events then, without being selective, you would have to accept what is says later in the article: "The truth of the man's [Scwartz] statement is not wholly accepted.

If we accept the police version then that surely results in a highly implausible scenario: after being assaulted, stride stands up, perfectly relaxed, and calmly takes the cachous from her pocket and starts eating them, whilst all the time BS man stands menacingly close by, before launching another blitz attack pushing her into the passageway!

[John G]

totally agree with this and batman

The caschous are a red herring. she simply held on to them.

However, if she wasn't holding them during the attack that Schwartz witnessed, Perhaps she took them out afterwards, when she finally agrees to accompany BS man into the alley.

Hi Abby,

Surely the difficulty with this scenario is explaining why Liz would agree to accompany such an unpleasant character, someone who had just assaulted her, into a dark, blind alley. I would have thought that would be the last thing a girl might do in the circumstances, however, some might say, what do I know about women! Maybe she was the type of girl who enjoyed the thrill of entering a dark passageway with a dangerous-looking stranger!

Seriously, though, I attempted to think my way out of this conundrum in post 760, in which I postulated that BS man gave Stride the cachous, by way of an olive branch, and coxed her into the Yard, where he intends to kill her, by offering to buy her a drink at the club; I further speculated that Stride might be amenable to this suggestion because it was a public place and, anyway, once inside the club she can ditch this unpleasant character and look for a more suitable client. And, at the very least, she can enjoy a spot of singing and dancing, not to mention a free drink!

However, Lynn seemed to think this scenario would be incompatible with Stride's body position: she would have to be exiting the yard walking towards the gate: see post 763. I therefore submitted a revised version in which Stride abruptly changed her mind and made a beeline for the gate, quickly pursued by BS man: see post 767. However, Lynn raised further issues in post 772, i.e. whether during a sudden exit she would be relaxed and confident enough to take a the cachous from her pocket.

However, after being given the cachous by BS man maybe she just held the packet in her hand for the whole time and was still eating them, perhaps to help quell her nerves as much as anything, as she sensed BS man behind her in the dark passage: see post 767.

[John G]

Just a shout out to John G., I've been enjoying your posts immensely.

And Batman - thank you for the post about victims holding things. I've been dubious, but only because I for some reason had my head up my backside about Stride's case in particular and just how common it is for murder victims to be holding something.

I maintain that it's probably just as common for killers to place objects around their victims, for reasons known only to themselves. But really, it just seems sensible here to err on the side of not-staged.

Hi Ausgirl,

Ah, thank you for your very kind comments. They are much appreciated. I must say, I have also enjoyed reading a number of your posts, which I have also found both enjoyable and informative.

[Jon Guy]

Hi John

I think there are a few problems with this scenario. Firstly, Scwartz doesn't mention Stride eating the cachous, even though his evidence is otherwise pretty detailed.!

Agreed, Schwartz doesn`t mention her eating them, but she could be holding them, which seems likely as they are found in her hand.

Also there are, of course, two versions of Scwartz's evidence. According to the official police report, "The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned round a threw her down on the footway a the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly."

It is the Star's version of Scwartz's evidence that states she was pushed into the passage.

I`ve highlighted the bit in the police version that matches the Star version: The man TRIED to pull the woman into the street BUT he turned her around and threw her down on the footway.
So, he didn`t pull the woman into the street, he tried to. This matches with the Star`s version of pushing her into the passageway.

However, the Star also refers to the second man holding a knife, rather than a pipe. That suggests to me that this is an embellished and sensationalised version of what had happened. Even if you give preference to the Star's version of events then, without being selective, you would have to accept what is says later in the article: "The truth of the man's [Scwartz] statement is not wholly accepted.!

I don't think the reference to pipeman holding a knife is accepted by many.

If we accept the police version then that surely results in a highly implausible scenario: after being assaulted, stride stands up, perfectly relaxed, and calmly takes the cachous from her pocket and starts eating them, whilst all the time BS man stands menacingly close by, before launching another blitz attack pushing her into the passageway!

Where do you get the bit about Stride standing up after being assaulted and taking out a cashous and BS Man standing menacingly nearby?

[Jon Guy]

John

Have you not considered the view that Schwartz may have seen Stride actually been murdered, and just not been aware of it ?

[Batman]

I think The Star rather than Schwartz who needed a translator introduced the embellishments.

Jack the Pipeman doesn't have the same ring to it.