What evidence would it take?

[c.d.]

I think Jack killed Stride but I don't think the B.S. man was Jack. I really can't imagine her going voluntarily with the B.S. man into the yard after a supposedly vicious attack and his threatening of Schwartz. Certainly Stride would have realized that this is a dangerous man at that point. The only thing I can think of is that Schwartz misinterpreted what he saw and it was more in the nature of an accident and not intentional by the B.S. man. He is pulling one way, Stride the other and he lets go. The unexpected momentum pushes her to the ground. He apologizes profusely, says he has had a bit too much to drink and offers more than the normal price as a way to make amends.

c.d.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I think Jack killed Stride but I don't think the B.S. man was Jack. I really can't imagine her going voluntarily with the B.S. man into the yard after a supposedly vicious attack and his threatening of Schwartz. Certainly Stride would have realized that this is a dangerous man at that point. The only thing I can think of is that Schwartz misinterpreted what he saw and it was more in the nature of an accident and not intentional by the B.S. man. He is pulling one way, Stride the other and he lets go. The unexpected momentum pushes her to the ground. He apologizes profusely, says he has had a bit too much to drink and offers more than the normal price as a way to make amends.

c.d.

Maybe he scarpered because he thought Schwartz might report the assault to a policeman - and that gave the real murderer his opportunity.

[c.d.]

Maybe he scarpered because he thought Schwartz might report the assault to a policeman - and that gave the real murderer his opportunity.

It would have been foolish/ballsy for the B.S. man to kill Stride after being seen by Schwartz and Pipe Man as he was only guilty of pushing a woman at that point.

c.d.

[Lewis C]

Sure, but given Deimshitz had to light a match to recognize it was a body, where she was found was dark as well.

I didn't say nor imply she went with him willingly. For all we know, after Schwartz left and stopped looking, B.S. could have went on to manhandle her into the alley and killed her where she was found, leaving after cutting her throat because he heard too much noise in the building at that point. While some argue the cachous in her hand speak against that, I find it hard to imagine any type of assault by B.S. or anyone else that can explain their presence, so they appear to be one of those weird hard to explain events that sometimes happen. For all we know, her killer put them there for some reason known only to themselves.

As for the element of surprise, B.S.'s sudden attack probably did surprise Stride, and if he suddenly assaulted Nichols in the same way, she too was probably surprised by it. In other words, a sudden attack may be his use of that very element of surprise you feel he relied upon.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I wanted to highlight the point that I bolded, because it raised a real possibility that I hadn't previously considered. One reason that I doubted that BS Man was Stride's killer is because it has often been argued that Stride had minimal mutilations because her killer didn't have time to mutilate because he was interrupted by Diemschutz's arrival. If Schwartz saw the start of Stride's murder, there would have been plenty of time to have mutilated her before Diemschutz arrived. However, it could be that he was interrupted not by Diemschutz, but earlier than that, by noise in the building. So there isn't necessarily any conflict between the ideas that BS man killed her and that he was interrupted, he just wouldn't have been interrupted by Diemschutz.

[Aethelwulf]

Hi Jeff,

I wanted to highlight the point that I bolded, because it raised a real possibility that I hadn't previously considered. One reason that I doubted that BS Man was Stride's killer is because it has often been argued that Stride had minimal mutilations because her killer didn't have time to mutilate because he was interrupted by Diemschutz's arrival. If Schwartz saw the start of Stride's murder, there would have been plenty of time to have mutilated her before Diemschutz arrived. However, it could be that he was interrupted not by Diemschutz, but earlier than that, by noise in the building. So there isn't necessarily any conflict between the ideas that BS man killed her and that he was interrupted, he just wouldn't have been interrupted by Diemschutz.

Hi LC, I've always thought this is probably the most likely answer and that the ripper was gone before D arrived.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

I wanted to highlight the point that I bolded, because it raised a real possibility that I hadn't previously considered. One reason that I doubted that BS Man was Stride's killer is because it has often been argued that Stride had minimal mutilations because her killer didn't have time to mutilate because he was interrupted by Diemschutz's arrival. If Schwartz saw the start of Stride's murder, there would have been plenty of time to have mutilated her before Diemschutz arrived. However, it could be that he was interrupted not by Diemschutz, but earlier than that, by noise in the building. So there isn't necessarily any conflict between the ideas that BS man killed her and that he was interrupted, he just wouldn't have been interrupted by Diemschutz.

Hi Lewis C,

Yah, a common thought is that it was Diemshutz's arrival that spooked JtR, but there have been discussions on the board about other possible events that might have "interrupted him". Noise from the building being one idea. It also could be that given the ground was muddy, he may have decided the area was too filthy and he didn't want to get mud on his clothing (make him stand out after he left, type thing), and so on. The imagination can come up with lots of things, but in the end it looks like Stride's killer cut her throat and left. And from various testimonies, the murder was probably 10 to 15 minutes prior to Deimshutz's arrival, so I tend to think he was long gone by then.

- Jeff

[Newbie]

I think DNA evidence is almost out of the question for such reasons as well but i like the example. Suspect's home + DNA + murder weapon.

What physical evidence remains? Knives, clothing .... I doubt any of it is reliable.
There are bodies that can be exhumed .... but nobody is going to go there.

[mpriestnall]

To solve the case permanently and provide a majority consensus? (I realize there are plenty of people who have convinced themselves they know already and consider it a closed case)

This is posed to the general community of both experts/Ripperologists and those who've at least followed enough to differentiate between an iron clad case and the theory of the week which sounds promising. Naturally there's not going to be something like video footage of the Ripper in the act of mutilating his victims. This hypothetical evidence would be however well superior to the infamous shawl for example. Lets stipulate for a moment whatever this evidence (or amount) is unquestionably authentic.

So to reiterate, this is hypothetical untainted proof which has at least a reasonable possibility of still existing. What would it be that finally reveals the identity of Jack the Ripper?

The only evidence that's likely to still exists and could be compelling is a raft of circumstantial evidence.

For example a suspect with some or all or similar of the following:

a suspect matching descriptions of some witness sightings.
a suspect with possible motives.
behavior post the murder crimes: changing names, inexplicably going abroad.
a suspect with connections to the victims.
a suspect with some medical knowledge.
etc.

All these kinds of evidences would be circumstantial and would need to be in a sufficient number and of a type, that taken together to support a case of "too much to be just a coincidence".

Here's a Indian legal blog webpage discussing the nature and use of circumstantial evidence that you may find interesting.

https://blog.ipleaders.in/all-about-circumstantial-evidence/

[Fiver]

The only evidence that's likely to still exists and could be compelling is a raft of circumstantial evidence.

For example a suspect with some or all or similar of the following:

a suspect matching descriptions of some witness sightings.
a suspect with possible motives.
behavior post the murder crimes: changing names, inexplicably going abroad.
a suspect with connections to the victims.
a suspect with some medical knowledge.
etc.

All these kinds of evidences would be circumstantial and would need to be in a sufficient number and of a type, that taken together to support a case of "too much to be just a coincidence".

This is a good list, but in most serial killings there is no connection with the victims, they were targets of opportunity. The same is probably true of the Ripper killings.

[Michael W Richards]

I believe that there is no possibility that any solution for these cases would ever be widely accepted, particularly by Ripperologists. Not even with newly discovered physical evidence, or DNA test results. People believe what they want to, and here, when presented with actual evidence that counters or points to a different conclusion, they still choose to believe what they believe. Its actually quite a remarkable feature of this study. I liken it to the study of the JFK assassination, many people will tell you that the Warren Commission report reveals the truth about that day and the players involved, when in actuality, some conclusions and statements in it are not credible, and continue to be challenged almost 60 years later.

[Fiver]

I believe that there is no possibility that any solution for these cases would ever be widely accepted, particularly by Ripperologists. Not even with newly discovered physical evidence, or DNA test results. People believe what they want to, and here, when presented with actual evidence that counters or points to a different conclusion, they still choose to believe what they believe.

Thus is true, but also highly ironic, since you often ignore evidence that doesn't support your theories.

[jmenges]

Whoa Nellie!
In case you missed it, Ripper threads have been declared JFK assassination-free zones.
Goes to both Warren Commission supporters and its critics.
You know exactly what'll happen...find a different analogy.

JM

[etenguy]

What physical evidence remains? Knives, clothing .... I doubt any of it is reliable.
There are bodies that can be exhumed .... but nobody is going to go there.

Hi Newbie

That is if the remains of the victims could be reliably established even.

It is hard to think what evidence might appear now - lost police documentation? I think we would need an authentic find - perhaps if the killer had buried a box of evidence to keep it secret and it is now found - who knows what it might include - the knife, some notes, press cuttings etc...

[Michael W Richards]

Thus is true, but also highly ironic, since you often ignore evidence that doesn't support your theories.

Actually, the truth is that even when using known, established evidence to extrapolate from people disregard the suggestions based on who suggested it... because of course, they cant just disregard evidence. One would think anyway.